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Old 07-23-2014, 03:32 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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The problem of Evil and death of children

Sam Harris will challenge your world view if you watch this. Christians should avoid watching this at all costs.

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Old 07-26-2014, 06:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Animals saving people? I think you're a bit too old to still be watching Disney movies.
http://listverse.com/2010/03/14/top-...saving-humans/

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Old 07-26-2014, 06:07 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Animals saving people? I think you're a bit too old to still be watching Disney movies.
Don't be a dumbass. There are stories about that all the time.

Here's one where it was actually captured on video.



Wait, I get it. The dog was a demon sent from hell, and the cat was actually a guardian angel.
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:49 PM   #78
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Hey Dave, God sent you to this earth to free people from religion and to save all the children under 5. So far, you're sucking at both. Step away from the computer and get busy, you lazy bum!
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Old 07-27-2014, 12:31 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
Craig does whoop a lot of people he debates. He's a very smart man. Unless i"m confusing him with someone else, which I don't think I am.

He has the most astoundingly well defended god of the gaps argument I've ever seen, and he is incredibly good at tearing at the rhetoric used against him.

The atheists who debate him step in expecting a bumbling clown shoe creationist and what they get is very intelligent discourse from a guy who uses a lot of evidence and 10 dollar words to support his position. He always sounds like the smartest guy in the debate and he very well may be. He has written essays on this subject (about morals) and I have read them.

Also, he is NOT a biblical creationist. He's a very smart man who would absolutely murder any atheist on this forum in a debate, including myself. Christians need more people like him. I especially liked his comments on creationists:
Good post. I've seen Dr. Craig talk on numerous occasions, and he is a brilliant mind. People often dismiss Christian apologetics as young earthers like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind presenting 45 minute slideshows to Southern Baptist Churches filled with half-wits. The fact of the matter is, there are Christian philosophers like William Lane Craig, Douglas Wilson, and Bill Dembski who are well-respect both theologically and in the secular community. Even in the realm of science, there are apologists like Francis Collins (former director of the National Institute of Health) and Alister McGrath (molecular biophysicist from Oxford) who balance an evangelical faith with a relevant career in science.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:54 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
I read the first one on your list. A cat crying during a fire that woke up a family who all left the home. It was so hilariously bad as an "animal saving a human" that I laughed and then closed the link.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:33 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
Good post. I've seen Dr. Craig talk on numerous occasions, and he is a brilliant mind. People often dismiss Christian apologetics as young earthers like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind presenting 45 minute slideshows to Southern Baptist Churches filled with half-wits. The fact of the matter is, there are Christian philosophers like William Lane Craig, Douglas Wilson, and Bill Dembski who are well-respect both theologically and in the secular community. Even in the realm of science, there are apologists like Francis Collins (former director of the National Institute of Health) and Alister McGrath (molecular biophysicist from Oxford) who balance an evangelical faith with a relevant career in science.
....check out Chuck Missler
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:35 PM   #82
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Chiefshrink, so if it wasn't for the bible and religion, you'd be raping and murdering people?
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I read the first one on your list. A cat crying during a fire that woke up a family who all left the home. It was so hilariously bad as an "animal saving a human" that I laughed and then closed the link.
#3 was the best its quite a compelling example of animals exhibiting empathy
and compassion. The fact that Gorillas are primates and not to far down the evolutionary ladder from us makes it cool.


On August 16 1996 in the Brookfield Zoo, a 3 year old boy fell into a Gorilla enclosure and lost consciousness. Binti Jua a female Lowland Gorilla, guarded the young boy from the other Gorillas in the enclosure, she then cradled him in her arm (while her own 17 month old baby was on her back) and carried him 60 feet to an entrance where zoo-keepers could retrieve him.

This isnít an isolated case, on August 31 1986 at Jersey Zoo a 5 year old boy fell into a Gorilla enclosure and lost consciousness, a large male Gorilla named Jambo stood guard over the boy not allowing any of the others to come near, when the boy woke up and started crying all of the Gorillas backed off and zoo-keepers (along with an ambulance) were able to retrieve him safely.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:53 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I read the first one on your list. A cat crying during a fire that woke up a family who all left the home. It was so hilariously bad as an "animal saving a human" that I laughed and then closed the link.
Man I just posted the top link after searching google.

I guess you didn't read about the dolphins who scared off the shark, or the chimps who protected small children? Of course not... being dismissive is the easiest way to protect yourself from acknowledging you're wrong.

There are literally thousands of stories about animals saving people. Ignoring it won't make it less true.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:55 AM   #85
King_Chief_Fan King_Chief_Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post

Unlike most atheists I do believe in an objective moral code. That does not mean subjective morals do not exist. We know they do. I don't believe there is any divine power driving these things. It's how we survive and thrive.

The problem I see is that basically these guys aren't saying things that is entirely disagreeable to me. All we're disagreeing about is the source. Theirs is magic, and mine is years of humans operating within groups and developing abilities that helps us achieve that. That is why our list of objective morals have expanded in the past 2000 years since the bible was written without condemning child abuse, slavery, and pretty much all forms of violence against women. Now the vast majority consider these things reprehensible.
http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/bible_verses.html

I think the verses in this link suggest there is condemnation.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #86
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It also had verses like this so...


Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28* If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,*29*he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a]*of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:06 PM   #87
Bufkin Bufkin is offline
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Originally Posted by -King- View Post
It also had verses like this so...


Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28* If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,*29*he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a]*of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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Which is completely irrelevant to the obvious existence of objective moral values. The issue isn't "atheism vs. Christianity", but "atheism vs. theism". A nonbeliever quote mining the old testament and taking it out of context is simply a red herring when discussing moral relativism or the lack thereof.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:22 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
Which is completely irrelevant to the obvious existence of objective moral values. The issue isn't "atheism vs. Christianity", but "atheism vs. theism". A nonbeliever quote mining the old testament and taking it out of context is simply a red herring when discussing moral relativism or the lack thereof.
How is it out of context? Explain the context then.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:53 PM   #89
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How is it out of context? Explain the context then.
Read the Old Testament in its entirety, and compare it alongside the Gospels of the New Testament. It is not my job to explain the context. Do your own homework. Contrary to what certain people might tell you, the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of moral monster who goes about commanding people to kill women and children. It is the very singularity of these narratives that makes them stand out.

Playing Devil's Advocate, let's suppose that you're right. Suppose the skeptic is able to demonstrate to our satisfaction that an all-loving, all-just God could not have issued such commands found in the OT. What follows from that? That Christ didn’t rise from the dead? That Jesus Christ was not God incarnate? That God does not exist? No, obviously none of that would follow. All that would follow is that God in fact did not give such commands found in the OT.

In other words, what this objection is really an attack on is not the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, it is an attack on the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. In regards to reading the Old Law in context, William Lane Craig says it best in a response to Richard Dawkins:
Quote:
“I think it’s just dishonest when people like Richard Dawkins portray Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, as this immoral dictator. These highly singular commands need to be read against the background of the whole of the Old Testament which includes the great moral law that is given by God which is head and shoulders above other ancient near eastern moral and legal codes.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:10 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
Read the Old Testament in its entirety, and compare it alongside the Gospels of the New Testament. It is not my job to explain the context. Do your own homework. Contrary to what certain people might tell you, the God of the Old Testament is not some sort of moral monster who goes about commanding people to kill women and children. It is the very singularity of these narratives that makes them stand out.

Playing Devil's Advocate, let's suppose that you're right. Suppose the skeptic is able to demonstrate to our satisfaction that an all-loving, all-just God could not have issued such commands found in the OT. What follows from that? That Christ didnít rise from the dead? That Jesus Christ was not God incarnate? That God does not exist? No, obviously none of that would follow. All that would follow is that God in fact did not give such commands found in the OT.

In other words, what this objection is really an attack on is not the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, it is an attack on the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. In regards to reading the Old Law in context, William Lane Craig says it best in a response to Richard Dawkins:
Dude...

He asked you why you thought it was out of context. Which was a completely valid question. How do you know he hasn't read the entire Old Testament in its entirety. I have, and I still think his question is perfectly valid.

You say that he has to read the OT in context, but it's not even clear that you know what that is supposed to mean. How does one take out of context, the command to pay the father of the women you rape? Or in the same book, commanding men to stone their rebellious sons. Saying "Do your homework" is simply avoiding a response. What homework is he supposed to do exactly to find context?

And if someone did manage to demonstrate that an all-loving God could not have done those things, then yes you should absolutely question what follows. Detox never said everything in the Bible is true or not, so he's not attacking biblical inerrancy. He's simply pointing out that the OT had many examples of God supposedly commanding genocide, justifying murder/rape/infanticide/etc. Which it did. He never said everything is true or everything is supposed to be true.

If you think you've found additional context which changes the meaning of those verses, then you're welcome to offer it. If it's that out of context, then show him why, because it's certainly not obvious.
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