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Old 06-20-2009, 12:06 PM  
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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LOOKS LIKE IRAN IS CHOOSING TO TIANANMEN OPTION

Watching a lot of videos of Basijis opening fire and rounding people up in the cover of darkness.

Got a bad feeling a lot of Iranians are going to disappear tonight...
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:28 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by ROYC75 View Post
Nice to see you have oil on your feathers and all you can do is squawk about it .
On the bright side, you've at least punctuated correctly.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:28 PM   #512
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:29 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
I agree. We cannot play "World Police". If that is the case we might as well just go invade every country that treats their people like shit and plant our flag and take over the world.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:29 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by KC Dan View Post
"evil"-----"The Axis of Evil" -----arrrrgghhhhhh. you can't say that here.
There's plenty of evil leaders and we support some of them too. Like Mubarek who tortured dissidents and whose elections were questionable.
The problem is that getting involved, especially the ME and especially Iran has been a source of blowback for our country.

If we get involved we may make newer enemies, may have to occupy it and rebuild it. You don't know how much better the new govt will be for us either. That's costly and we're broke.



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"Perhaps we didn't appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and the complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle. Perhaps the idea of a suicide car bomber committing mass murder to gain instant entry to Paradise was so foreign to our own values and consciousness that it did not create in us the concern for the Marines' safety that it should have. In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing that we should do was turn tail and leave. Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 Marines would be alive today."-- Ronald Reagan's Autobiography
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:30 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
A more appropriate question would be "why do these countries, Russia and China, support the Ahmenutjob regime?".

Actually, another thought on this; We should all be praying/hoping/paying/dropping pennies in the well/whatever that these three don't ever see eye to eye on anything other than being sick of america and needing willing trade partners with, for if they did come together with motives of conquer - the world could be in for a big time hurtin.....
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:36 PM   #516
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Seeing Through All the Propaganda About Iran


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Meanwhile, we have been watching an intensifying western propaganda campaign against Iran, mounted by the US and British governments. What we hear is commentary and analysis that comes from bitterly anti-regime Iranian exiles, "experts" with an ax to grind, and US pro-Israel neocons yearning for war with Iran.

In viewing the Muslim world, Westerners keep listening to those who tell them what they want to hear, rather than the facts. We are at it again in Iran.

Quote:
But that was not the whole story. Washington has been attempting to overthrow Iran’s Islamic government since the 1979 revolution and continues to do so in spite of pledges of neutrality in the current crisis.

The US has laid economic siege to Iran for 30 years, blocking desperately needed foreign investment, preventing technology transfers, and disrupting Iranian trade. In recent years, the US Congress voted $120 million for anti-regime media broadcasts into Iran, and $60-75 million funding opposition parties, violent underground Marxists like the Mujahidin-i-Khalq, and restive ethnic groups like Azeris, Kurds, and Arabs under the so-called "Iran Democracy Program."

The arm of Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, remains withered from a bomb planted by the US-backed Mujahidin-i-Khalq, who were once on the US terrorist list.

Pakistani intelligence sources put CIA’s recent spending on "black operations" to subvert Iran’s government at $400 million.

According to an ABC News investigation, President George Bush signed a "finding" that authorized an accelerated campaign of subversion against the Islamic Republic. Washington’s goal was "regime change" in Tehran and installation of a pro-US regime of former Iranian royalist exiles.

While the majority of protests we see in Tehran are genuine and spontaneous, Western intelligence agencies and media are playing a key role in sustaining the uprising and providing communications, including the newest electronic method, via Twitter. These are covert techniques developed by the US during recent revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pro-US governments to power.

( I'm fine on the US govt asking Twitter to stay up though)

he Tehran government made things worse by limiting foreign news reports and arresting prominent politicians. Its leadership is increasingly – and dangerously – split over how to handle the protests.

We also hear lot of hypocrisy from Western capitals. Washington, Ottawa, London and Paris piously accused Iran of improper electoral procedures while utterly ignoring the total lack of democracy in their authoritarian Mideast allies such as Egypt, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia, that never hold elections and throw political opponents into prison and torture them. Compared to them, Iran, for all its faults, is almost a model of democratic governance.

The US, France and Saudi Arabia just cooperated to rig Lebanon’s recent elections, dishing out millions in bribe money to ensure victory of the pro-US faction. France’s President Nicholas Sarkozy had the chutzpah to rebuke Iran for improper election procedures after returning from the funeral of Gabon’s dictator, Omar Bongo, who had ruled for 41 years and supplied France with cheap oil.

When Hamas won a fair and square democratic election in Gaza, the US and Israel swiftly moved to mount a coup against the new Palestinian government.

US senators, led by John McCain, blasted Iran for not respecting human rights. That’s pretty rich after they just voted to bar the public release of ghastly torture photos from US prisons in Iraq, want secret US prisons kept open, and champion torture.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, one of the dimmest bulbs in the weak-wattage Republican ranks, called for US intervention in Iran. Graham was an architect of the Iraq fiasco. Let’s air assault the warlike senator into downtown Tehran.

Über-moral Canada, which backed Pakistan’s military dictatorship under Gen. Pervez Musharraf, accused Tehran of unfair elections.

There are many questions about Iran’s vote, of which incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won by 60%.

Voter turnout was an amazing 84%, putting to shame the US and Europe, where less than half of voters exercise their right.

Pre-election polls that showed Ahmadinejad headed for a big win were right. All those foreigners praying for his defeat and the collapse of the Islamic government may be deeply disappointed.

But it also appears there were significant – though as far as we know now – not decisive irregularities. Iran’s government has admitted that some ballot boxes were stuffed, and the speaker of the Majils (parliament), the capable Ali Larijani, rebuked certain unnamed clerics for trying to rig results. This was extremely stupid, as Ahmadinejad was way ahead in pre-election polls anyway, and very popular.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:44 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Just to point this out BEP;

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Meanwhile, we have been watching an intensifying western propaganda campaign against Iran, mounted by the US and British governments. What we hear is commentary and analysis that comes from bitterly anti-regime Iranian exiles, "experts" with an ax to grind, and US pro-Israel neocons yearning for war with Iran.

In viewing the Muslim world, Westerners keep listening to those who tell them what they want to hear, rather than the facts. We are at it again in Iran.
You do realize that applies to Lew as well, right?
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:47 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey View Post
Actually, another thought on this; We should all be praying/hoping/paying/dropping pennies in the well/whatever that these three don't ever see eye to eye on anything other than being sick of america and needing willing trade partners with, for if they did come together with motives of conquer - the world could be in for a big time hurtin.....
Does it not occur to you that China has already beat us economically? They own our country. They say, we do. Why do you think ole' "Cankles" Clinton was over there earler this year begging them to keep buying more of our debt? For Christ's sake, the U.S. Army wears hats "made in China".
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:47 PM   #519
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We also hear lot of hypocrisy from Western capitals. Washington, Ottawa, London and Paris piously accused Iran of improper electoral procedures while utterly ignoring the total lack of democracy in their authoritarian Mideast allies such as Egypt, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia, that never hold elections and throw political opponents into prison and torture them. Compared to them, Iran, for all its faults, is almost a model of democratic governance.
I'm not sure that's hypocrisy. It is and it isn't, I guess. On the one hand, it's hypocrisy to want all allies to be democratic yet ally yourself with non-democratic nations. On the other, there's a difference from knowingly being non-democratic and putting on a front of democracy only to rig it a certain way (if that took place). Demanding Iran be truthful in its "democratic" elections is not the same as allying yourself with non-democratic nations.

I hope I explained that clearly enough.

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Über-moral Canada, which backed Pakistan’s military dictatorship under Gen. Pervez Musharraf, accused Tehran of unfair elections.
Again, that's not really hypocrisy. That's apples to oranges. Even though supporting military dictatorships isn't something I personally agree with.

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US senators, led by John McCain, blasted Iran for not respecting human rights. That’s pretty rich after they just voted to bar the public release of ghastly torture photos from US prisons in Iraq, want secret US prisons kept open, and champion torture.
Damn, that's a truth bomb.

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Pre-election polls that showed Ahmadinejad headed for a big win were right. All those foreigners praying for his defeat and the collapse of the Islamic government may be deeply disappointed.
Not saying Nate Silver is the end-all, be-all of polling truth or whathaveyou, but I'm pretty sure he demolished this notion.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:49 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
I'm not sure that's hypocrisy. It is and it isn't, I guess. On the one hand, it's hypocrisy to want all allies to be democratic yet ally yourself with non-democratic nations. On the other, there's a difference from knowingly being non-democratic and putting on a front of democracy only to rig it a certain way (if that took place). Demanding Iran be truthful in its "democratic" elections is not the same as allying yourself with non-democratic nations.

I hope I explained that clearly enough.



Damn, that's a truth bomb.

It is selective outrage. We don't bitch at Saudi Arabia because of finanical reasons. Same with China, etc, etc.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:51 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
It is selective outrage. We don't bitch at Saudi Arabia because of finanical reasons. Same with China, etc, etc.
I agree, it's selective outrage, but that doesn't mean its hypocritical - which was Lew's point. And others I've seen on this board.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:55 PM   #522
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I liked the different perspective on this matter was why I put it up. If you read the whole link he even credits Mossad for knowing what it's talking about here even if he doesn't agree with them at the start. There's some facts in there we ought to think about.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:07 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
Just to point this out BEP;



You do realize that applies to Lew as well, right?
Lew or the many contributers over at Lew, that also write for other newspapers and some of who are internationally syndicated? They all don't agree with every fact given by Lew. In fact he doesn't write most of the articles either. But overall, that site and Justin Raimondo's has been pretty darn accurate for this age so far.

Instead you should check on who Margolis is. He's internationally syndicated, and writes for a Canadian paper. That's who wrote that piece. You need to check the link.

Oh, and I don't agree with everything Lew says. I agree with him on our present day FP though and did before I knew of his site.

So don't lecture me kid. I should be lecturing you.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:28 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
I agree. We cannot play "World Police". If that is the case we might as well just go invade every country that treats their people like shit and plant our flag and take over the world.
Imagine that you live in a neighborhood where the police never go. It's all between you and your neighbors. Fortunately, you're a mixed martial arts badass and you're the only guy with any guns. Unfortunately, one of the assholes on the next block who has a history of bullying old ladies and terrorizing the old man who runs the local market is starting to lift weights and stock up on brass knuckles, billy clubs and knives. You've also heard that he's interested in buy a gun. You can either let this belligerent scumbag continue to increase his ability to throw his weight around and f*** up your otherwise peaceful neighborhood or you can do something about him before he gets out of hand. It's not that you're the neighborhood cop, it's a matter of maintaining control over your own world.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:31 PM   #525
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You know pat, there's always gonna be evil in this world and rogue govts. You can't fix everyone or everything. It's too unwieldy, expensive, makes new enemies and brings blowback.

I mean even the French King that helped in our Revolution had his head chopped off by his Revolution for blowback, because of inflation and heavy war debts that eventually starved his people. We have to learn to leave some things alone. We can't remake the world through govt or our military.
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