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Old 02-11-2011, 09:17 AM  
Jenson71 Jenson71 is offline
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Mubarak Steps Down

'Egypt is free! Egypt is free!'

Wild cheers erupted from tens of thousands of demonstrators in Cairo's Tahrir Square after word spread that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has resigned. Demonstrators chanted "Egypt is free!" upon hearing the news.

http://www.cnn.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/wo...t.html?_r=1&hp
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:19 PM   #211
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There was also that Shaw dude.

FAX
Good point. Never let it be said that our government is smart enough to learn from history.

Afghanistan victory should be declared any minute. Any minute now....
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:21 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
Not a single Arab would agree to that. If that is right, then why didn't we people protest shortly after that?

The biggest credit is due to Mohammad Boazizi may God bless his soul, he is the one who started this rolling, albeit unintentionally. Attributing this to what the US did in Iraq is laughable. In fact, every Arab compares what happened in Egypt and Tunisia to Iraq in a negative way. They say, over 1 Million people died to "liberate" Iraq while only less than a 1000 and less than 60 days to liberate Egypt and Tunisia combined.
"This one was a slowburn."
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:21 PM   #213
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Right. If they choose something I don't want, like to join in league with al Qaeda in an effort to destroy the US, I don't support that and I'd be in favor of using whatever force is necessary to change their minds.
It seems to me they wouldn't go through all of this to go from shitty dictator to another and along with it bring war and destruction.

I think they are smarter than that.

From my viewpoint the way I hear it from so of you is that you think they should have no choice and stick with Mubarak because they are stupid. I disagree with that.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:27 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
Not a single Arab would agree to that. If that is right, then why didn't we people protest shortly after that?

The biggest credit is due to Mohammad Boazizi may God bless his soul, he is the one who started this rolling, albeit unintentionally. Attributing this to what the US did in Iraq is laughable. In fact, every Arab compares what happened in Egypt and Tunisia to Iraq in a negative way. They say, over 1 Million people died to "liberate" Iraq while only less than a 1000 and less than 60 days to liberate Egypt and Tunisia combined.
Perhaps you're just a timid and cautious people, somewhat like the dog I rescued from the local kennel that cowered every time I called it's name because of experiences it must have had with it's previous owner. Just a theory.

Hypothetical: How would you feel if you knew that Iraqis were free and governed by a person elected in free and fair elections while your people were still subject to the brutal whims of a dictator? Would that be alright with you or would you think Egyptians deserve freedom every bit as much as Iraqis?

Personally, I think it's all for the best that Egyptians and other Arabs believe freedom was all their idea instead of an idea introduced to their region by the Great Satan.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:29 PM   #215
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Get over yourself, Fritz88. No one here would begrudge the people of Egypt having a government that is genuinely based on individual freedom. But there's not a lot of that going on in the Arab and muslim world these days. It's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical and it's also perfectly reasonable to be concerned about what a contrary outcome would mean for our interests. F*** Egypt if it reverts to an alliance with anti-Western socialism or decides to side with anti-Western islamism.
Egyptians and Tunisians did not revolt because they wanted to destroy the west or harm you. They revolted because they could not feed their children. They revolted because a Policeman could randomly arrest you and jail you and you couldn't do shit about it because of Emergency rule. The people have no dignity and no self respect (main reason for revolt). That is why they revolted. Sadly, the west did not intervene to change the status quo for the Arabs. They elected to side with dictators and people like you were okay with it. As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats. 360 Million Arabs probably feel the same way. I certainly do not hope for a radical government as I stated earlier. But people do hate that they lived for 30 years and the west stood still. There is a lot of resentment for the US in the Arab world. Don't act surprised, because you have earned it.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:29 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
Egyptians and Tunisians did not revolt because they wanted to destroy the west or harm you. They revolted because they could not feed their children. They revolted because a Policeman could randomly arrest you and jail you and you couldn't do shit about it because of Emergency rule. The people have no dignity and no self respect (main reason for revolt). That is why they revolted. Sadly, the west did not intervene to change the status quo for the Arabs. They elected to side with dictators and people like you were okay with it. As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats. 360 Million Arabs probably feel the same way. I certainly do not hope for a radical government as I stated earlier. But people do hate that they lived for 30 years and the west stood still. There is a lot of resentment for the US in the Arab world. Don't act surprised, because you have earned it.
No, they revolted because they got a down payment from Iran's protest.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:33 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
It seems to me they wouldn't go through all of this to go from shitty dictator to another and along with it bring war and destruction.

I think they are smarter than that.

From my viewpoint the way I hear it from so of you is that you think they should have no choice and stick with Mubarak because they are stupid. I disagree with that.
No, my personal opinion is that what's going on now gives everyone the best possible chance of a good outcome ("good" from my pov, of course). Mubarak leaving takes some steam out of the protests, but the military is still running things so there's a chance that a reasonable transition to a pro-Western democracy is possible (but certainly not guaranteed). A decent into immediate chaos would have been horrible.

I think there's a very real danger of an Islamist or a socialist populism taking hold though because I suspect the economic conditions are going to suck for the foreseeable future.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:34 PM   #218
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Yes!

"The people of Egypt have spoken. Their voices have been heard and Egypt will never be the same," the president said. "By stepping down, President Mubarak responded to the Egyptian people's hunger for change, but this is not the end of Egypt's transition. It's the beginning."
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:36 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, my personal opinion is that what's going on now gives everyone the best possible chance of a good outcome ("good" from my pov, of course). Mubarak leaving takes some steam out of the protests, but the military is still running things so there's a chance that a reasonable transition to a pro-Western democracy is possible (but certainly not guaranteed). A decent into immediate chaos would have been horrible.

I think there's a very real danger of an Islamist or a socialist populism taking hold though because I suspect the economic conditions are going to suck for the foreseeable future.
Maybe Obama can convince Mubarak to spread some of his estimated $40 to $80 billion of personal wealth around to ease the pain?
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:37 PM   #220
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"As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats."



Some of us, Fritz, do notice that, and try to out it to stop any more of it. Too many times very petty goals like "getting elected" cause such outcomes around the world. The more truth, the better. Hosni wasn't that different than Shah or Saddam, two terrible people the US initially fell for because of convenience.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:39 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by LaDairis View Post
"As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats."



Some of us, Fritz, do notice that, and try to out it to stop any more of it. Too many times very petty goals like "getting elected" cause such outcomes around the world. The more truth, the better. Hosni wasn't that different than Shah or Saddam, two terrible people the US initially fell for because of convenience.
That's actually accurate. Well done.

Just like with Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" takes place with good frequency in the ME.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:39 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
Egyptians and Tunisians did not revolt because they wanted to destroy the west or harm you. They revolted because they could not feed their children. They revolted because a Policeman could randomly arrest you and jail you and you couldn't do shit about it because of Emergency rule. The people have no dignity and no self respect (main reason for revolt). That is why they revolted. Sadly, the west did not intervene to change the status quo for the Arabs. They elected to side with dictators and people like you were okay with it. As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats. 360 Million Arabs probably feel the same way. I certainly do not hope for a radical government as I stated earlier. But people do hate that they lived for 30 years and the west stood still. There is a lot of resentment for the US in the Arab world. Don't act surprised, because you have earned it.
Perhaps you didn't notice that I was on the side of GWBush and the neocons when they tried to change the script on that "stability-at-all-costs" foreign policy and instead encourage political liberalization (the good kind) of Arab society. Don't lump me in with the people who wanted to maintain the status quo. But at the same time, stop blaming the US and the west for your own dictators. We didn't force them on you.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #223
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No, my personal opinion is that what's going on now gives everyone the best possible chance of a good outcome ("good" from my pov, of course). Mubarak leaving takes some steam out of the protests, but the military is still running things so there's a chance that a reasonable transition to a pro-Western democracy is possible (but certainly not guaranteed). A decent into immediate chaos would have been horrible.

I think there's a very real danger of an Islamist or a socialist populism taking hold though because I suspect the economic conditions are going to suck for the foreseeable future.
Fair enough and I agree with most of your assessment. As with probably any ME country the thought of an Islamist populism taking hold is fairly high even in Iraq once we leave.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
Egyptians and Tunisians did not revolt because they wanted to destroy the west or harm you. They revolted because they could not feed their children. They revolted because a Policeman could randomly arrest you and jail you and you couldn't do shit about it because of Emergency rule. The people have no dignity and no self respect (main reason for revolt). That is why they revolted. Sadly, the west did not intervene to change the status quo for the Arabs. They elected to side with dictators and people like you were okay with it. As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats. 360 Million Arabs probably feel the same way. I certainly do not hope for a radical government as I stated earlier. But people do hate that they lived for 30 years and the west stood still. There is a lot of resentment for the US in the Arab world. Don't act surprised, because you have earned it.
**** that. Another third world whiner expecting the US to do something for you and strapping a bomb to your belly when you feel slighted. Warts on the ass of the world.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by LaDairis View Post
"As long as they serve your personal agenda. You don't mind Hosni sticking his foot down their throats."



Some of us, Fritz, do notice that, and try to out it to stop any more of it. Too many times very petty goals like "getting elected" cause such outcomes around the world. The more truth, the better. Hosni wasn't that different than Shah or Saddam, two terrible people the US initially fell for because of convenience.
Mubarak, the Shah, and Saddam. One of these "allies" is not like the others.
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