Other Sports Off Season Lets Talk Guns - Page 98

HonestChieffan · 07:21 PM

Been a while since we had a guns n' ammo discussion.

Some of you are AR shooters Im sure. Im looking at a Colt 6920. Will be my first AR. Picked up a Glock this fall and really enjoy shooting it. Any feedback on that weapon?

Anyone else been in a buy/sell/trade mood with hardware?

notorious · 12-11-2011, 09:27 AM

Here is a pretty good article about killing power:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm

Rifle Cartridge Killing Power List

By Chuck Hawks

I don't have much faith in killing power formulas in general. Most are obviously designed to reinforce someone's pre-conceived notions. I was curious to see what the results would look like if I included the most obvious, easily quantifiable, factors in a simple killing power formula. These factors are velocity, energy, bullet weight, sectional density (SD), and bullet cross-sectional area (frontal area).

After some thought and some time spent playing around with those numbers on my hand calculator, I found that if I took energy at 100 yards and multiplied it by bullet sectional density (a fractional number) and bullet cross-sectional area (also a fractional number), the result was a manageable two or three digit number, which I then rounded off to one decimal place. Ergo, the killing power number.

I choose energy at 100 yards because most CXP2 to CXP4 game is killed between 50 and 150 yards. 100 yards is right in the middle of that spread, and energy at 100 yards is included in most ballistics tables, so it's an easy number to use. Also, 100 meters is only slightly longer than 100 yards, so for all practical purposes the same killing power results will apply at 100 meters as well as 100 yards. If you want to compare the killing power of cartridges at some other distance, just plug-in the energy figures for that distance and work the equation.

For a more detailed description of the development of the killing power formula, please read "Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page.

Here is the formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.

The most important factor in killing power, by far, is bullet placement. The second most important factor is probably bullet terminal performance. The third most important factor is probably the physical and mental state of the game animal in question at the moment it is shot. This formula takes into account none of those factors. Unfortunately, those key factors are not quantifiable, at least by me. So, I am assuming that the hunter knows how to shoot, where to put the bullet, and that the bullet is appropriate for the game and conditions.

I will say that after I had initially calculated the results for a number of common rifle cartridges using the formula above, I was encouraged. The results seemed reasonable in light of my personal research and experience. I concluded that, although undoubtedly not perfect, these killing power numbers generally have a positive correlation with reality.

Remember that these numbers are the result of an attempt to apply a simple formula to an extremely complex problem. Unlike the creators of "pounds-feet," "impulse energy," "hydro-static shock" and other pseudo scientific terms, I want it to be clearly understood that these numbers do not represent any scientific quantity or unit of measurement. Use them as an indicator as seems appropriate, but do not attempt to make them into some sort of killing power dogma.

The list that follows is intended to suggest the relative killing power of various big game hunting cartridges and loads at 100 yards (or meters, if you prefer) when those cartridges are used appropriately. (Cartridge, bullet weight in grains, muzzle velocity in feet per second - killing power number at 100 yards.)

.223 WSSM (64 grain at 3600 fps) - 10.1

.243 Winchester (100 grain at 2960 fps) - 18.1

.243 WSSM (100 grain at 3100 fps) - 20.0

.25-06 Remington (120 grain at 2990 fps) - 26.5

6.5x55 SE (140 grain at 2700 fps) - 30.7

6.5mm Remington Magnum (120 grain at 3210 fps) - 30.2

.270 Winchester (130 grain at 3150 fps) - 35.0
.270 Winchester (150 grain at 2850 fps) - 37.4

.270 WSM (140 grain at 3125 fps) - 40.1

7mm-08 Remington (140 grain at 2860 fps) - 33.6

.280 Remington (140 grain at 3000 fps) - 37.1

7mm Remington Magnum (150 grain at 3110 fps) - 44.8

.30 Carbine (110 grain at 1990 fps) - 7.4

.30-30 Winchester (150 grain at 2390 fps) - 22.8
.30-30 Winchester (170 grain at 2200 fps) - 25.4

.300 Savage (150 grain at 2630 fps) - 30.0

.308 Winchester (150 grain at 2820 fps) - 34.7
.308 Winchester (180 grain at 2620 fps) - 46.2

.30-06 Springfield (150 grain at 2920 fps) - 37.3
.30-06 Springfield (180 grain at 2700 fps) - 49.2

.300 WSM (180 grain at 2960 fps) - 59.5

.300 Winchester Magnum (180 grain at 2960 fps) - 59.5

.300 Weatherby Magnum (180 grain at 3240 fps) - 72.8

7.62x39 Soviet (123 grain at 2365 fps) - 15.7

.303 British (180 grain at 2460 fps) - 40.1

.32 Winchester Special (170 at 2250 fps) - 25.4

8x57 JS Mauser (195 grain at 2550 fps) - 52.0

.325 WSM (200 grain at 2950 fps) - 75.6

.338x57 O'Connor (200 grain at 2400 fps) - 39.7

.338 Winchester Magnum (250 grain at 2650 fps) - 94.8

.357 Magnum (Rifle) (158 grain at 1830 fps) - 12.7

.35 Whelen (200 at 2675 fps) - 56.4

.350 Remington Magnum (200 grain at 2770 fps) - 60.9

.375 H&H Magnum (270 grain at 2690 fps) - 106.2

.416 Remington Magnum (400 grain at 2400 fps) - 188.4

.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle) (240 grain at 1760 fps) - 26.4

.444 Marlin (265 grain at 2325 fps) - 63.4

.45-70 Government (300 grain at 1810 fps) - 50.1
.45-70 Government (405 grain at 1330 fps) - 55.0

.450 Marlin (350 grain at 2100 fps) - 88.9

.458 Winchester Magnum (500 grain at 2090 fps) - 217.3

LiveSteam · 12-11-2011, 09:34 AM

223& 243wssm Kind of an odd ball cal that never really caught on

223 WSSM barrel burner

243 WSSM & a 243.

notorious · 12-11-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveSteam

223& 243wssm Kind of an odd ball cal that never really caught on

223 WSSM barrel burner

243 WSSM & a 243.

I put in a floor for a guy that had a rifle that shot those.

He said it was the fasted round in the world at 4000+ fps.

LiveSteam · 12-11-2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

I put in a floor for a guy that had a rifle that shot those.

He said it was the fasted round in the world at 4000+ fps.

Ya they really cook down range. The 243 WSSM actually has a pretty big following. Peeps like that 4000+ velocity. Like the 22-250. You load them hot & they will eat a barrel up. I believe D-Techs & a few others are making AR-Uppers for this round now.

LiveSteam · 12-14-2011, 02:55 PM

Santa Claus helps close out the "100 Year Anniversary of the 1911" by playing one chorus of "Jingle Bells" with the Colt 1911

notorious · 12-14-2011, 03:05 PM

I finally got a Rock River M4 16" with full quad rail a couple of weeks ago. It feels like a toy compared to a standard AR-15, but man is it fun to shoot.

4 30 round and 2 20 round Promags are loaded and ready to rock. Next up on the list: 24" AR-10 .308 or Remington 700. Any suggestions on reaching out past 500 are welcome, though.

LiveSteam · 12-14-2011, 03:53 PM

Howa M-1500
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/defa...35_13987_14069

Savage is excellent. Love the Accu trigger system.
Remington QC aint what it used to be.

Gotta love the lil 22 they sell

notorious · 12-14-2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveSteam

Howa M-1500
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/defa...35_13987_14069

Gotta love the lil 22 they sell

Wow, they have some cool stuff for a decent price.

That M1 .22 carbine is cool. I love shooting my father's real M1 carbine.

Do you have any experience with their bolt-action rifles? It would be nice to get some input other than,"Get a Remington 700 and never look back."

LiveSteam · 12-14-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

Wow, they have some cool stuff for a decent price.

That M1 .22 carbine is cool. I love shooting my father's real M1 carbine.

Do you have any experience with their bolt-action rifles? It would be nice to get some input other than,"Get a Remington 700 and never look back."

If you go with a 700. By a nice used one made in the early 70s.
I have never shot the H-1500 my self. But have read countless people talk about its out of the box accuracy.
As for the Savage/The Savage trigger can be adjusted to your liking. Thats a big big plus once you start to shoot out past 500. Howa QC is excellent. Savage aint bad either.

Only 1 Remington bolt action I will lay money on. Rem MoHawk 600s

notorious · 12-14-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveSteam

If you go with a 700. By a nice used one made in the early 70s.
I have never shot the H-1500 my self. But have read countless people talk about its out of the box accuracy.
As for the Savage/The Savage trigger can be adjusted to your liking. Thats a big big plus once you start to shoot out past 500. Howa QC is excellent. Savage aint bad either.

Were they higher quality back then?

LiveSteam · 12-14-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

Were they higher quality back then?

Yes.
The 700 has always had the so called trigger issue. So did the 600 class Rems which I own & have owned several other 600s. Never had 1 go bang on accident.

**frazod** · 12-25-2011, 10:55 AM

Merry Christmas!

LiveSteam · 12-25-2011, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod

Merry Christmas!

Awesome vid
I thought for sure you would have a new Xmas toy to post.
Dad got 8 dozen sill sock decoys to add to the snow goose spread.
Im pretty stoked about it. Hunting over decoys is all about numbers. & that should put us around a 1000.

Merry Christmas

HonestChieffan · 12-25-2011, 11:25 AM

I'll post pics next week.....finally got an AR.....LaRue OBR 5.56. Merry Christmas to me.

Dunit35 · 12-27-2011, 04:22 PM

Bout to buy a utg quad rail to my AR for $30 and a utg foregrip for $20 from amazon. I'm bout to upgrade to a vortex strikefire red/green dot scope.

01-23-2011, 10:58 AM
HonestChieffan Hoffa called me an SOB Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the Country in MO Casino cash: $1220559	Off Season Lets Talk Guns Been a while since we had a guns n' ammo discussion. Some of you are AR shooters Im sure. Im looking at a Colt 6920. Will be my first AR. Picked up a Glock this fall and really enjoy shooting it. Any feedback on that weapon? Anyone else been in a buy/sell/trade mood with hardware? Last edited by HonestChieffan; 09-16-2011 at 07:21 PM..
Posts: 21,912

12-11-2011, 09:27 AM	#1456
notorious I Lay Wood for a Living Join Date: May 2005 Location: Who knows? Casino cash: $93516	Here is a pretty good article about killing power: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm Rifle Cartridge Killing Power List By Chuck Hawks I don't have much faith in killing power formulas in general. Most are obviously designed to reinforce someone's pre-conceived notions. I was curious to see what the results would look like if I included the most obvious, easily quantifiable, factors in a simple killing power formula. These factors are velocity, energy, bullet weight, sectional density (SD), and bullet cross-sectional area (frontal area). After some thought and some time spent playing around with those numbers on my hand calculator, I found that if I took energy at 100 yards and multiplied it by bullet sectional density (a fractional number) and bullet cross-sectional area (also a fractional number), the result was a manageable two or three digit number, which I then rounded off to one decimal place. Ergo, the killing power number. I choose energy at 100 yards because most CXP2 to CXP4 game is killed between 50 and 150 yards. 100 yards is right in the middle of that spread, and energy at 100 yards is included in most ballistics tables, so it's an easy number to use. Also, 100 meters is only slightly longer than 100 yards, so for all practical purposes the same killing power results will apply at 100 meters as well as 100 yards. If you want to compare the killing power of cartridges at some other distance, just plug-in the energy figures for that distance and work the equation. For a more detailed description of the development of the killing power formula, please read "Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page. Here is the formula: Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards. The most important factor in killing power, by far, is bullet placement. The second most important factor is probably bullet terminal performance. The third most important factor is probably the physical and mental state of the game animal in question at the moment it is shot. This formula takes into account none of those factors. Unfortunately, those key factors are not quantifiable, at least by me. So, I am assuming that the hunter knows how to shoot, where to put the bullet, and that the bullet is appropriate for the game and conditions. I will say that after I had initially calculated the results for a number of common rifle cartridges using the formula above, I was encouraged. The results seemed reasonable in light of my personal research and experience. I concluded that, although undoubtedly not perfect, these killing power numbers generally have a positive correlation with reality. Remember that these numbers are the result of an attempt to apply a simple formula to an extremely complex problem. Unlike the creators of "pounds-feet," "impulse energy," "hydro-static shock" and other pseudo scientific terms, I want it to be clearly understood that these numbers do not represent any scientific quantity or unit of measurement. Use them as an indicator as seems appropriate, but do not attempt to make them into some sort of killing power dogma. The list that follows is intended to suggest the relative killing power of various big game hunting cartridges and loads at 100 yards (or meters, if you prefer) when those cartridges are used appropriately. (Cartridge, bullet weight in grains, muzzle velocity in feet per second - killing power number at 100 yards.) .223 WSSM (64 grain at 3600 fps) - 10.1 .243 Winchester (100 grain at 2960 fps) - 18.1 .243 WSSM (100 grain at 3100 fps) - 20.0 .25-06 Remington (120 grain at 2990 fps) - 26.5 6.5x55 SE (140 grain at 2700 fps) - 30.7 6.5mm Remington Magnum (120 grain at 3210 fps) - 30.2 .270 Winchester (130 grain at 3150 fps) - 35.0 .270 Winchester (150 grain at 2850 fps) - 37.4 .270 WSM (140 grain at 3125 fps) - 40.1 7mm-08 Remington (140 grain at 2860 fps) - 33.6 .280 Remington (140 grain at 3000 fps) - 37.1 7mm Remington Magnum (150 grain at 3110 fps) - 44.8 .30 Carbine (110 grain at 1990 fps) - 7.4 .30-30 Winchester (150 grain at 2390 fps) - 22.8 .30-30 Winchester (170 grain at 2200 fps) - 25.4 .300 Savage (150 grain at 2630 fps) - 30.0 .308 Winchester (150 grain at 2820 fps) - 34.7 .308 Winchester (180 grain at 2620 fps) - 46.2 .30-06 Springfield (150 grain at 2920 fps) - 37.3 .30-06 Springfield (180 grain at 2700 fps) - 49.2 .300 WSM (180 grain at 2960 fps) - 59.5 .300 Winchester Magnum (180 grain at 2960 fps) - 59.5 .300 Weatherby Magnum (180 grain at 3240 fps) - 72.8 7.62x39 Soviet (123 grain at 2365 fps) - 15.7 .303 British (180 grain at 2460 fps) - 40.1 .32 Winchester Special (170 at 2250 fps) - 25.4 8x57 JS Mauser (195 grain at 2550 fps) - 52.0 .325 WSM (200 grain at 2950 fps) - 75.6 .338x57 O'Connor (200 grain at 2400 fps) - 39.7 .338 Winchester Magnum (250 grain at 2650 fps) - 94.8 .357 Magnum (Rifle) (158 grain at 1830 fps) - 12.7 .35 Whelen (200 at 2675 fps) - 56.4 .350 Remington Magnum (200 grain at 2770 fps) - 60.9 .375 H&H Magnum (270 grain at 2690 fps) - 106.2 .416 Remington Magnum (400 grain at 2400 fps) - 188.4 .44 Remington Magnum (Rifle) (240 grain at 1760 fps) - 26.4 .444 Marlin (265 grain at 2325 fps) - 63.4 .45-70 Government (300 grain at 1810 fps) - 50.1 .45-70 Government (405 grain at 1330 fps) - 55.0 .450 Marlin (350 grain at 2100 fps) - 88.9 .458 Winchester Magnum (500 grain at 2090 fps) - 217.3
Posts: 22,298

12-11-2011, 09:34 AM	#1457
LiveSteam All aboard the crazy train Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: homeof43conferencetitles Casino cash: $41771	223& 243wssm Kind of an odd ball cal that never really caught on 223 WSSM barrel burner 243 WSSM & a 243.
Posts: 12,238

12-14-2011, 02:55 PM	#1460
LiveSteam All aboard the crazy train Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: homeof43conferencetitles Casino cash: $41771	Santa Claus helps close out the "100 Year Anniversary of the 1911" by playing one chorus of "Jingle Bells" with the Colt 1911
Posts: 12,238

12-14-2011, 03:05 PM	#1461
notorious I Lay Wood for a Living Join Date: May 2005 Location: Who knows? Casino cash: $93516	I finally got a Rock River M4 16" with full quad rail a couple of weeks ago. It feels like a toy compared to a standard AR-15, but man is it fun to shoot. 4 30 round and 2 20 round Promags are loaded and ready to rock. Next up on the list: 24" AR-10 .308 or Remington 700. Any suggestions on reaching out past 500 are welcome, though.
Posts: 22,298

12-14-2011, 03:53 PM	#1462
LiveSteam All aboard the crazy train Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: homeof43conferencetitles Casino cash: $41771	Howa M-1500 http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/defa...35_13987_14069 Savage is excellent. Love the Accu trigger system. Remington QC aint what it used to be. Gotta love the lil 22 they sell Last edited by LiveSteam; 12-14-2011 at 04:02 PM..
Posts: 12,238

12-25-2011, 10:55 AM	#1467
frazod Keep firing, assholes! Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $2833715	Merry Christmas! __________________ I'm not mean; I just don't like you.
Posts: 85,019

12-25-2011, 11:25 AM	#1469
HonestChieffan Hoffa called me an SOB Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the Country in MO Casino cash: $1220559	I'll post pics next week.....finally got an AR.....LaRue OBR 5.56. Merry Christmas to me. __________________ "The best time to sell peanuts is when the circus is in town."
Posts: 21,912

12-27-2011, 04:22 PM	#1470
Dunit35 Keepin it Real Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oklahoma Casino cash: $1995369	Bout to buy a utg quad rail to my AR for $30 and a utg foregrip for $20 from amazon. I'm bout to upgrade to a vortex strikefire red/green dot scope.
Posts: 8,638

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