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Old 03-22-2012, 03:52 PM  
Chiefshrink Chiefshrink is offline
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Another Obama lie with his fake "180 degree flip flop" on Keystone

Not a drop of oil will flow because it will not be approved. But yet he hopes the uneducated masses buy into this Cushing OK PR stunt on the Keystone pipeline. Why is he doing this? The price of gas AND more importantly a poll that came out that said 78% of Americans want Keystone. Interesting this event was closed to the public. I wonder why

You Can’t Fast Track Keystone XL by Denying Its Application
Nicolas LorisMarch 21, 2012 at 5:00 pm(7) Heritage Foundation

Several news outlets are reporting that President Obama will call for expediting the permitting process for southern part of the Keystone XL pipeline when he visits Cushing, Oklahoma, this week. Expediting the permitting process for a part of the pipeline is great, and the quicker we can move forward with Keystone the better, but can it really be considered expediting if the project should have already been approved?

The answer is no. President Obama rejected the original permit application for Keystone XL submitted by TransCanada. The entire pipeline project spans 1,700 miles and would bring up to 830,000 barrels of oil per day from Alberta, Canada, to the U.S. The southern part of the pipeline, now called the Gulf Coast Project, does not require a presidential permit because it does not cross international borders. It only requires a permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and nothing has changed with regards to this part of the project. It’s the same route TransCanada submitted to the State Department in 2008.

In other words, the President’s decision to reject the permit application has already unnecessarily slowed the process. It was the environmental activists’ relentless opposition to Keystone that persuaded President Obama to deny the permit application. In doing so, he blamed others for forcing him to take a decision, saying, “This announcement is not a judgment on the merits of the pipeline, but the arbitrary nature of a deadline that prevented the State Department from gathering the information necessary to approve the project and protect the American people.”

But the review by the State Department was thorough and complete. It studied and addressed risk to soil, wetlands, water resources, vegetation, fish, wildlife, and endangered species. Keystone XL also met 57 specific pipeline safety standard requirements..

Some of the concern of environmentalists and Nebraska residents has focused on the original route of the pipeline, particularly the area where the pipeline would cross the Ogallala Aquifer and the state’s Sand Hills region. Nebraska already has miles of natural gas, crude, refined products, and petrochemical pipelines crossing the state’s purportedly sensitive Ogallala Aquifer, including pipelines in the Sand Hills region.

Even so, if President Obama were sincere in his support of the pipeline, he could have approved the permit and allowed TransCanada and Nebraska’s Department of Environmental Quality to work on a reroute to satisfy landowners and state officials in Nebraska.

Furthermore, if President Obama were sincerely supportive of the pipeline, he would not have personally lobbied Senate Democrats to vote against an amendment that would have authorized construction of the entire pipeline.
Expediting the southern portion of Keystone XL is good because it will create jobs immediately and move oil from Cushing to the Gulf Coast as soon as 2013.

But because of President Obama’s decision to reject Keystone’s permit application last year, we’re already behind. The President’s attempt to satisfy those upset about high gas prices while catering to his special interest groups isn’t going to cut it.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by KCTitus View Post
Interesting...I hadnt heard this before. I did some googling and found a couple of articles. The ones I read were about the fact they were concerned about the safety of the pipeline as opposed to the 'land grab'. I guess if the local land owners agreed and now have second thoughts about safety, that's one thing, but I cannot find a link where a land owner was forced to give his private land over to the pipeline. I find that two different things.
You need to see a specific case? I gave you a link showing who was teaming up on this— property owners and environmentalists. I think you're seeing what you want to see in this case.
“Government has no other end but the preservation of property” – John Locke.
Quote:
Conservatives Against the Keystone Pipeline

What has been missed until recently in all of this is how TransCanada planned on acquiring property. Right now TransCanada is suing landowners in Nebraska and Texas to gain access to their property to build the Keystone pipeline on them. Texas Tea Party groups have begun opposing the pipeline on eminent domain grounds.

In September 2011 the Texas Supreme Court ruled in Texas Riceland Partners vs. Denbury Green-Pipeline Texas that using the powers of eminent domain to give property to a private corporation that would only be privately using the property (specifically a gas pipeline in this case) violated the Texas Constitution. In May of 2011 the Texas Legislature passed a law that provided a lot of strength to that ruling.

Nevertheless, utility companies are fighting the ruling and TransCanada is continuing to take Texans to court in order to gain their property for the pipeline.

Quote:

Link within the above story on who is losing what land:
After Crawford repeatedly refused to allow TransCanada onto her land, the company sought eminent domain last fall.

TransCanada says they’ve settled all but 20 of the 80 eminent domain cases they’ve filed in Texas since beginning the pipeline project, and that they pay “at least” market value for the land, if not more.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/201...minent-domain/
TC has gotten around it by saying they're public when it's one of those public/private partnerships. However the Tea Partiers have fought against the reasoning being used by TC that
they're a public “common carrier” pipeline .


Quote:
After the opinion by the Supreme Court of Texas, the oil and gas industry has been fighting to overturn it. (You can read more about those efforts in our earlier report, Pipeline Companies Fight for Right to Take Property.) ...

But Crawford and some other holdouts may not go quietly. While the Supreme Court of Texas revisits the decision, she’s filed a temporary restraining order against TransCanada in Lamar County.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:55 PM   #17
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So where are this board's conservatives now on protecting property and claiming to be followers of Constitutions at the state level and even the Federal. I thought conservatives were critical of Kelo v New London?

So, now that I've documented the eminent domain abuse on this pipeline, what about the fact that this oil will be going to China?
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
You need to see a specific case? I gave you a link showing who was teaming up on this— property owners and environmentalists. I think you're seeing what you want to see in this case.
I dont really have a dog in the hunt...it's not my property that's in question. I am willing to believe that there might be more to the story, but the few I read said the property owners agreed and then recanted. To me that's fishy.

If it's truly a private property issue, it's open and shut and should have no bearing on federal approval whatsoever. If it's private property rights at stake, then so be it. The land owners win, case closed. Why wouldnt Obama and related campaign staff (read all forms of related media) echo otherwise. That's odd...should be a simple dismissal. Obama could come out and say, too many private property owners have issues with the pipeline and we're not going to trample their rights.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So where are this board's conservatives now on protecting property and claiming to be followers of Constitutions at the state level and even the Federal. I thought conservatives were critical of Kelo v New London?

So, now that I've documented the eminent domain abuse on this pipeline, what about the fact that this oil will be going to China?
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:15 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by KCTitus View Post
I dont really have a dog in the hunt...it's not my property that's in question. I am willing to believe that there might be more to the story, but the few I read said the property owners agreed and then recanted. To me that's fishy.

If it's truly a private property issue, it's open and shut and should have no bearing on federal approval whatsoever. If it's private property rights at stake, then so be it. The land owners win, case closed. Why wouldnt Obama and related campaign staff (read all forms of related media) echo otherwise. That's odd...should be a simple dismissal. Obama could come out and say, too many private property owners have issues with the pipeline and we're not going to trample their rights.
What if it's part public and part private? Ya' know that fascist model?

I say we all have a dog in the fight since Kelo was decided. Otherwise, more of this is going to happen elsewhere—not just in Texas. We should hope TC loses in the Texas courts as it was the states that vowed to protect the rest of us from something like Kelo.

I have no idea why Obama says that, but maybe he knows all this and therefore knows it can't go through. Then again, he is an environmentalist and these guys are allies to these particular Tea Partiers. Politics makes strange bedfellows. But if conservatives or Republicans still think this is a good idea after knowing this....it tells me they aren't really advocates for property rights and will sell out their integrity to protect a corporation.

What are your thoughts on this oil not being sold in the U.S. but to open global markets outside the U.S., particularly China?
I would think you'd have a dog in the fight here, since Republicans, I thought, saw this as being less dependent on foreign oil and that it would lower gasoline prices.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
What if it's part public and part private? Ya' know that fascist model?

I say we all have a dog in the fight since Kelo was decided. Otherwise, more of this is going to happen elsewhere—not just in Texas. We should hope TC loses in the Texas courts as it was the states that vowed to protect the rest of us from something like Kelo.

I have no idea why Obama says that, but maybe he knows all this and therefore knows it can't go through. Then again, he is an environmentalist and these guys are allies to these particular Tea Partiers. Politics makes strange bedfellows. But if conservatives or Republicans still think this is a good idea after knowing this....it tells me they aren't really advocates for property rights and will sell out their integrity to protect a corporation.

What are your thoughts on this oil not being sold in the U.S. but to open global markets outside the U.S., particularly China?
I would think you'd have a dog in the fight here, since Republicans, I thought, saw this as being less dependent on foreign oil and that it would lower gasoline prices.
Your post is kind of a mess...it's all over the place. Why doesnt Obama claim private property rights as the major sticking point? Maybe because he doesnt give an EFF. I have no idea.

My thoughts about the oil being sold to countries outside the United States...I, like Obama, dont give an EFF...if the demand is not here, and its elsewhere, why should I care? The actual pipeline will create thousands of jobs for a couple of years and several hundred in maintenance over the many years of its existence.

Quite frankly, Im suprised you even posted this considering you posted there are legitimate private property concerns involved. To me that pretty much shuts it down. Or were you waiting for me to be inconsistent?
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:50 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by KCTitus View Post
Your post is kind of a mess...it's all over the place.
Huh? Sounds more like you just don't understand it. Mine isn't all over the place...I am covering your varying questions, and different aspects of the issue that have been unknown. Perhaps you should break up the post so I can see what you mean on specific parts.

Quote:
Why doesn't Obama claim private property rights as the major sticking point? Maybe because he doesnt give an EFF. I have no idea.
I have no idea either but YOU asked me that about Obama and are asking it again. I only guessed at what Obama could think based on his positions. So you'll have to ask Obama, if you really want to know. This is the only reason I went off in another direction here—because YOU asked Me. The point on property rights was raised by me because, in general, the right thinks approving Keystone is hunky-dory. This includes how it will deliver us more oil supply. It won't because it's just another Republican mercantilist con job.

Quote:
My thoughts about the oil being sold to countries outside the United States...I, like Obama, dont give an EFF...if the demand is not here, and its elsewhere, why should I care?
Why should you care? I dunno, but you seemed to when you posted it was a good idea in relation to the original post.
I presumed this was because the right, including its pundits on FOX and includes yourself, have been saying Obama's not approving drilling such as Keystone before, was causing high gas prices. That and the desire to lessen independence on ME oil. If you've watched FOX that's what some of their pundits are pounding away at for the high gas prices ( when it's really the weak dollar ).

Quote:
The actual pipeline will create thousands of jobs for a couple of years and several hundred in maintenance over the many years of its existence.
You're telling me I'm all over the place and now you switch to this will create jobs? So what if it does. The ends doesn't justify the means.

It's not the govt's job to create jobs by taking property for a private corporation. Not unless someone is on the left...then seizing property for the public good is considered A-Okay!

Quote:
Quite frankly, Im suprised you even posted this considering you posted there are legitimate private property concerns involved. To me that pretty much shuts it down.
I don't think you got my point is more like it. I don't even know what this part of your post is referring to exactly. You're connecting things not intended to be connected.

Quote:
Or were you waiting for me to be inconsistent?
No, I was pointing out that the right would be inconsistent once they had this information, should they persist on this pipeline being a good thing if passed by Obama. Afterall, they've been blaming him for the high cost of energy due to lack of drilling.

Actually, Obama is responsible but for a different reason— his chronic overspending, which corresponds to all the money being printed weakening the dollar. If people really want to handle this problem they need handle the Federal Reserve. Its actions enable the profligate spending.

But don't count on that happening.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:04 AM   #23
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:04 AM   #24
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Logical fallacy on legs has arrived.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:06 AM   #25
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Logical fallacy on legs has arrived.
What up baby? Lets make bats not war.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:08 AM   #26
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So now that it's known this relies on abusive eminent domain harming property rights, does not generate greater supply for Americans,nor reduce dependence on FP, are you making an argument for or against it, LS?
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Huh? Sounds more like you just don't understand it. Mine isn't all over the place...I am covering your varying questions, and different aspects of the issue that have been unknown. Perhaps you should break up the post so I can see what you mean on specific parts.


I have no idea either but YOU asked me that about Obama and are asking it again. I only guessed at what Obama could think based on his positions. So you'll have to ask Obama, if you really want to know. This is the only reason I went off in another direction here—because YOU asked Me. The point on property rights was raised by me because, in general, the right thinks approving Keystone is hunky-dory. This includes how it will deliver us more oil supply. It won't because it's just another Republican mercantilist con job.


Why should you care? I dunno, but you seemed to when you posted it was a good idea in relation to the original post.
I presumed this was because the right, including its pundits on FOX and includes yourself, have been saying Obama's not approving drilling such as Keystone before, was causing high gas prices. That and the desire to lessen independence on ME oil. If you've watched FOX that's what some of their pundits are pounding away at for the high gas prices ( when it's really the weak dollar ).


You're telling me I'm all over the place and now you switch to this will create jobs? So what if it does. The ends doesn't justify the means.

It's not the govt's job to create jobs by taking property for a private corporation. Not unless someone is on the left...then seizing property for the public good is considered A-Okay!


I don't think you got my point is more like it. I don't even know what this part of your post is referring to exactly. You're connecting things not intended to be connected.


No, I was pointing out that the right would be inconsistent once they had this information, should they persist on this pipeline being a good thing if passed by Obama. Afterall, they've been blaming him for the high cost of energy due to lack of drilling.

Actually, Obama is responsible but for a different reason— his chronic overspending, which corresponds to all the money being printed weakening the dollar. If people really want to handle this problem they need handle the Federal Reserve. Its actions enable the profligate spending.

But don't count on that happening.
Now, that's a breakdown of a post...LOL...

Here's my opinion, the pipeline is a good thing...it will provide jobs. Something sorely needed in this country. If the pipeline is held up due to private property concerns, I certainly understand that, but that is something that has gone unreported and not something that the Obama/MSM has talked about. For me, private property rights trump a private company and like I said, is pretty much case closed.

Lastly, dont get me started on the Fed...frankly, I think the Fed and the newly enacted Consumer Protection board which is part of the Fed is the ruination (communism virus) that will destroy this country eventually.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:44 AM   #28
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Fukushima provided jobs. Does that make it a good idea?
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus View Post
Now, that's a breakdown of a post...LOL...

Here's my opinion, the pipeline is a good thing...it will provide jobs.
Something sorely needed in this country.
This really is a progressive democrat position. I say let the market create the jobs and keep the govt out of being pro-active in this fashion. With less govt the jobs will come anyway. We don't need to have the govt approve this for jobs.

Quote:
If the pipeline is held up due to private property concerns, I certainly understand that, but that is something that has gone unreported and not something that the Obama/MSM has talked about. For me, private property rights trump a private company and like I said, is pretty much case closed.

Lastly, dont get me started on the Fed...frankly, I think the Fed and the newly enacted Consumer Protection board which is part of the Fed is the ruination (communism virus) that will destroy this country eventually.
If you think this, then you need to reexamine your position on the pipeline creating jobs while doing these things. Because it's contradictory and you're still the one who is all over the place.

BTW, why is the MSM the only valid source. Some of those links were to a mainstream, but just local source. That's not an argument. It's a logical fallacy.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:36 PM   #30
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Look, I actually LIKE Romney, but let's face it, the Republicans won't be holding the high ground on either honesty or flip-flopping if he wins the nomination. He has serious problems in both regards.

Etch-a-sketch indeed.
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