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Old 01-04-2012, 09:08 PM  
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***Offical 2012 STL Cardinals World Champions Thread ***

St. Louis Cardinals: 7 reasons fans should feel good about 2012

Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2012, at 9:26 PM

St. Louis Cardinals fans are likely feeling deflated after the collapse that put an end to the team's dreams of a World Series repeat, but there is good reason to be excited.

With all of the odds against them, the Cardinals managed to push their 2012 season beyond any anticipated boundary.

Given all of the season's changes and the adversity the team had to fight through, the fact that they played in October at all was an anomaly in itself. On paper, it made sense for the Cardinals to be in the playoffs, but few saw them as a true threat.
As the season continued, even fans began to doubt as they watched the team seemingly crumble in June and July. When the Cardinals finally came to life in September they went 11-5 in the last 16 games of the season to lock up the second Wild Card position in its inaugural year.

That run, despite it's crushing end in Cincinnati in Game 7 of the National League Championship Series, lots of good came from the Cardinals' season and playoff run.
Following in no particular order are 10 reasons Cardinals fans have to be excited about the 2013 season.

Trevor Rosenthal
When rookie fireballer Trevor Rosenthal made his first trip to St. Louis, it was obvious almost instantly that he was something special.
Between his 100 mph fastball and the general inability for almost anyone to hit off of him, he became a huge part of the Cardinals playoff run.

He pitched in a total of 19 regular season games before the 22-year-old rookie from Lee's Summit, Mo. got his first taste of postseason baseball and he put on quite a show.
In 8.2 IP over seven postseason appearances, Rosenthal held opponents to only two hits and no runs.
It's possible that down the stretch he may have already earned his spot in the rotation for 2013.

Shelby Miller
The long-coveted fastball pitching prospect Shelby Miller also made his first trip to St. Louis in 2012 and put on a good show.
In 13.2 IP over six regular season games, Miller surrendered only two runs on nine hits. His postseason performance was more of the same with two runs on four hits in 3.2 IP.

Despite a dismal first half of the season in Memphis, Miller got himself together and still managed to make one major league start before the end of the season -- a very impressive start at that.
Against the Cincinnati Reds in the final game of the regular season, Miller posted 5.2 hitless innings. He gave up no runs and collected his first major league win.

Expect to see a lot more of Miller in St. Louis early in 2013.

Joe Kelly
When Joe Kelly made his major league debut on June 10, few could have guessed the importance he would play throughout the remainder of the 2012 season.
Kelly started 16 games for the Cardinals this season filling in for Jaime Garcia and Lance Lynn, but it was the postseason when he really came through for his teammates.

When starting pitchers struggled time and again in October, it was Kelly who came to their rescue.
In seven postseason appearances, Kelly threw 7.2 innings and surrendered only two runs on six hits. Kelly came through for the Cardinals from the bullpen.
There's a good chance that could be his home in the future.

Mike Matheny
When the Cardinals hired Mike Matheny to take over for Tony LaRussa, many question bringing in a manager with no experience to such a storied franchise.

He had a few hiccups and growing pains along the way, but for a rookie manager to get his team where Matheny did this year speaks volumes.
His players have a strong respect for Matheny and credit his positive style with being a driving force behind their 2012 success.
True, he didn't get them through the NLCS, but the team made it to an all or nothing Game 7. That's good experience for the players obviously, but also for Matheny. Not only did he learn a lot about managing in the media pressure cooker that is postseason baseball, he also got a taste of what it felt like to win as a manager.

NLCS loss means more drive to win
While the NLCS loss was a good lesson for a young manager, it's an even more important lesson for a young player.
The 2011 championship lit a fire under young players like Lance Lynn and Jon Jay. That fire helped drive them to extremely successful sophomore seasons.

What happened in 2012 will likely do the same for Rosenthal, Miller and Kelly. Their 2013 season may not be like Jay or Lynn's 2012, but now they've gotten a little taste of what it feels like to be a winner.

Both the excitement and the public humbling can be a great experience for any young player.

The run was without several key components
In a season riddled with injuries, none were as crucial as those late in the season.
The loss of Lance Berkman and Rafael Furcal significantly weakened the team's bench. Instead of having Pete Kozma, Allen Craig and Matt Carpenter to pinch hit, the team wound up having to use them in the lineup.

The loss of Jaime Garcia and Jake Westbrook also rocked the Cardinals. Instead of having Lynn and Westbrook also available from the bullpen, Lynn was pushed back into the rotation after a very successful NLDS bullpen stint.

Having gotten as deep into the playoffs as the Cardinals did in spite of the injuries is quite the accomplishment.

They did it without Pujols, LaRussa and Duncan
Few in the world of sports gave the Cardinals a fighting chance when Albert Pujols left the team to play on the west coast. Surely this team couldn't be as good as they were?

Few gave them a chance after longtime manager Tony LaRussa decided it was time to retire.
Few gave them a chance after pitching coach Dave Duncan left the team.
The Cardinals did it despite all of that. That's something any fan should be proud of.

No, they didn't hoist a trophy. There will be no parade or tickertape.
What there is, though, is hope for next year and that will come sooner than you may think.
After all, pitchers and catchers report to Spring Training in just four short months.

From a blog I was sent on twitter: http://www.dailystatesman.com/blogs/...es/entry/50051

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Old 07-06-2012, 08:12 AM   #856
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Yeah lets give up 5-6 years of quality pitching, possibly CY young quality pitching for a possible rental player. No thanks.

Hamels will go for the big $'s. Grienke is a basketcase one step from a meltdown.
I dunno about labeling our young pitching as CY young quality just yet, but I understand what your getting at.



I'm not as big on Hamels, but I'd love to have Greinke. If you could sign him to a deal and pair him with Wainwright that would be pretty solid.


You aren't likely going to have to give up all of your young pitching either.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:12 AM   #857
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Any idea when we might see Miller with the big club?
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:28 AM   #858
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Any idea when we might see Miller with the big club?
He sucks badly right now.

His velocity is way down, his command is garbage. He's probably the 4th or 5th best option for our rotation in the minor leagues at the moment.

He's a better bet to get traded than he is to see the show right now. He needs to un-**** himself in a hurry because if he's throwing 92 mph with no fastball command and the same unpolished off-speed stuff he had coming into the season, he's no future ace; he's just another 5th starter.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #859
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He sucks badly right now.

His velocity is way down, his command is garbage. He's probably the 4th or 5th best option for our rotation in the minor leagues at the moment.

He's a better bet to get traded than he is to see the show right now. He needs to un-**** himself in a hurry because if he's throwing 92 mph with no fastball command and the same unpolished off-speed stuff he had coming into the season, he's no future ace; he's just another 5th starter.
I remember the same shit being said about wainwright. remember??? The Cardinals were stupis to be calling up a minor leaguer underperforming instead of trading for a more telented reliever. Remember.....

I disagree with your assesment. Almost every great pitcher goes through this in the minors. They are still maturing, making high school mistakes. They have been coodled all their lives and now they have to listen to authority and change. It's not easy. Maybe he never listens and changes. Thats what happened to Reyes.

But, if he gets his act together according to the majority of scouts his upside goes all the way to Cy Young level. Why would you trade that possibility for a rental?
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:31 AM   #860
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I dunno about labeling our young pitching as CY young quality just yet, but I understand what your getting at.



I'm not as big on Hamels, but I'd love to have Greinke. If you could sign him to a deal and pair him with Wainwright that would be pretty solid.


You aren't likely going to have to give up all of your young pitching either.
to get Grienke or Hamels its going to take Cox, Miller and Adams.

You really want to give up that future for a rental? We need a ballclub in 2014. Why mortgage the future now? We just won the World Series last ****ing year. We are going to have another Cardinals era start in 2014.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #861
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I remember the same shit being said about wainwright. remember??? The Cardinals were stupis to be calling up a minor leaguer underperforming instead of trading for a more telented reliever. Remember.....

I disagree with your assesment. Almost every great pitcher goes through this in the minors. They are still maturing, making high school mistakes. They have been coodled all their lives and now they have to listen to authority and change. It's not easy. Maybe he never listens and changes. Thats what happened to Reyes.

But, if he gets his act together according to the majority of scouts his upside goes all the way to Cy Young level. Why would you trade that possibility for a rental?
Not almost every great pitcher loses 4 mph off their fastball. The pitchers that lose 4 mph from their fastball AND lose command of it are usually hiding an injury....if they're lucky. The alternative is that they just start to degrade faster than some.

Oh, and put that CY crap in your pocket. You keep going to that well and it's absurd. The landscape is absolutely littered with players that dominated AA and then could never learn to harness their secondary pitches and ended up little more than a back of the rotation starter.

The 'majority of scouts' loved his velocity at 18 years old. He was throwing an easy 98 and could cruise at 94. Now he's lucky to hit 94 and is working in the 91 range. He has dominated the lower levels with his fastball so his secondary offerings are still seen as 'raw' to the point that he's been ordered not to shake off his catcher.

If he's a 22 year old kid with 94 mph heat and unrefined off-speed stuff, that makes him the same level prospect as Trevor Rosenthal and Joe Kelly. And history shows us that most kids that lose velocity in their early 20s don't just regain it.

He's struggled for half a season now and it's not just been the results. The stuff isn't there. He's not getting beat because this level is able to turn on his heat. He's getting beat because his heat just isn't that great anymore. And when your entire hype is built on being a power pitcher, not having that power to go to makes you destined for the back of a rotation or long-relief.

There's a 50/50 shot that he's a 12 months away from being a fading asset. We have 4 guys in the high minors that are considered premium pitching prospects (Miller, Rosenthal, Martinez and Jenkins); 2 of them will fail. The math doesn't lie. Those 4 pitchers are not all going to be what we thought they would be.

Oh, and as to Wainwright, I'm not buying your recollection. Wainwright destroyed the world in Spring Training and made the team out of camp. I think you're making shit up here to fit your narrative. Wainwright was seen by most as a young kid that simply stole a spot on the team and proceeded to dominate from the moment he hit the ground. He most assuredly wasn't a callup that struggled in AAA that people were ringing their hands over.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:04 PM   #862
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Oh, and as to Wainwright, I'm not buying your recollection. Wainwright destroyed the world in Spring Training and made the team out of camp. I think you're making shit up here to fit your narrative. Wainwright was seen by most as a young kid that simply stole a spot on the team and proceeded to dominate from the moment he hit the ground. He most assuredly wasn't a callup that struggled in AAA that people were ringing their hands over.
I lived in that era. I know was was being written and said. It was a big topic. Why are they putting a starter into a relief role, a 93 MPH fastball will get killed in relief.

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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
Not almost every great pitcher loses 4 mph off their fastball. The pitchers that lose 4 mph from their fastball AND lose command of it are usually hiding an injury....if they're lucky. The alternative is that they just start to degrade faster than some.

Oh, and put that CY crap in your pocket. You keep going to that well and it's absurd. The landscape is absolutely littered with players that dominated AA and then could never learn to harness their secondary pitches and ended up little more than a back of the rotation starter.

The 'majority of scouts' loved his velocity at 18 years old. He was throwing an easy 98 and could cruise at 94. Now he's lucky to hit 94 and is working in the 91 range. He has dominated the lower levels with his fastball so his secondary offerings are still seen as 'raw' to the point that he's been ordered not to shake off his catcher.
I understand your point that not everyone makes it to the big show. And I agree. Thats why you hang onto your blue chips. They have the best chance to make it. You play the odds.

The bottom line is that the Cardinals dont need to act out of deperation. This isnt the last year of a window that wont open again for who knows how many years in the future.

Stay the course. See what kind of reliever help you can get for Cox and keep your bullets for future battles.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:02 PM   #863
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We'll be checking out the AA Cardinals down in Texas tonight. Kevin Siegrist pitching.

Heading over to Memphis tomorrow, and will have a front row seat to see Shelby Miller pitch. Curious to see this kid up close.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:04 PM   #864
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YOU WON'T EVER GET THAT 85 TROPHY, BASTARDS!!!

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Old 07-06-2012, 01:05 PM   #865
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YOU WON'T EVER GET THAT 85 TROPHY, BASTARDS!!!

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No worries, we have 11 others.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:05 PM   #866
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Any chance you guys would take Francouer for Beltran, straight up? Beltran's heart is still here, you know.

We'll even throw in the SUPER FAST Jarrod Dyson! Act quickly!
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #867
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YOU WON'T EVER GET THAT 85 TROPHY, BASTARDS!!!

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Having 11 World Series Championship trophies is a comfort that any fan would love to have. Hoping you guys get another chance at another trophy is a cool thing. Really no BS.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:30 PM   #868
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Any chance you guys would take Francouer for Beltran, straight up? Beltran's heart is still here, you know.

We'll even throw in the SUPER FAST Jarrod Dyson! Act quickly!
Uh, no.

Although, ironically, I have a Jeff Francoeur autographed baseball. Got it for my Braves fan wife back when Francoeur was with Atlanta and didn't suck. The first couple of years that kid had, hard to believe he turned out the way he did.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:00 PM   #869
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Having 11 World Series Championship trophies is a comfort that any fan would love to have. Hoping you guys get another chance at another trophy is a cool thing. Really no BS.
Baseball will be better with a good team in KC, good fans, great stadium but sucky ownership.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:00 PM   #870
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to get Grienke or Hamels its going to take Cox, Miller and Adams.

You really want to give up that future for a rental? We need a ballclub in 2014. Why mortgage the future now? We just won the World Series last ****ing year. We are going to have another Cardinals era start in 2014.
I doubt that would do it now. Cox and Miller both are flailing. Adams might be attractive to the Brewers, but I doubt the Phillies would be interested unless they think they can find someone to take Howard and his massive albatross of a deal.

I don't see a problem with dealing any of them if you think you can have at least a 75% chance of keeping them. Cox is going nowhere here, Adams may have a tough time finding a place regularly here as well (if Craig can finally stay healthy). Once Beltran leaves that opens up a spot for Taveras keeping Craig on the infield.

I wouldn't mind seeing if Luhnow would let Wandy go for Cox, Greene and a lesser tier pitching prospect. He loved Greene when he was here.
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