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Old 08-13-2012, 08:28 AM  
oldandslow oldandslow is offline
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John Thune's tax plan...

Mr. Thune is the state Sen from S. Dak and recently proposed eliminating all deductions from federal income tax. Instead, he argues, make the tax rates 8%, 14%, and 23% based upon income.

After giving this a lot of thought, I am not sure I am opposed to such a plan. It would eliminate a lot of fraud, stop rewarding people for having more kids, and make taxes simpler while holding true to a progressive tax plan. One could, of course, play with the numbers when passing the legislation.

What do you think?
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:29 AM   #2
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Wouldn't that be a tax increase on the working class/poor?
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:31 AM   #3
oldandslow oldandslow is offline
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Wouldn't that be a tax increase on the working class/poor?
I dunno. Again, I think you could play with the numbers.

Maybe have a lower one for the very poor. But I think most working folks probably pay at least 15%.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:50 AM   #4
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flat tax prorated against income with no loop holes...that should cover it.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:04 AM   #5
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John Thune's plan is far superior to what we have now.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:05 AM   #6
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flat tax prorated against income with no loop holes...that should cover it.
What does "prorated against income" mean?
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
Mr. Thune is the state Sen from S. Dak and recently proposed eliminating all deductions from federal income tax. Instead, he argues, make the tax rates 8%, 14%, and 23% based upon income.

After giving this a lot of thought, I am not sure I am opposed to such a plan. It would eliminate a lot of fraud, stop rewarding people for having more kids, and make taxes simpler while holding true to a progressive tax plan. One could, of course, play with the numbers when passing the legislation.

What do you think?
What do I think? Since I don't trust politicians based on their record of increasing such things over time but using a low rate to induce us into a new plan, this low percent will climb and then they'll be no escape valves, like loopholes at all. Afterall, the income tax started out at around 1% and was only to be on the wealthiest. Look how that turned out.

If there were no loopholes ever at all, their would have been a tax revolt long before now.

This does nothing but tinker with the edges because it doesn't address spending or the proper role of govt. People who want to keep their goodies at the expense of others like such approaches.

The spending path we're on is unsustainable, especially since govt will be more involved in healthcare despite protestations to the contrary.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:35 AM   #8
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That's somewhat similar to what these "experts" propose in this pretty interesting NPR piece.

My God I realized there are a ton of exemptions and loopholes that people take for granted.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/...nomic-platform
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SNR View Post
That's somewhat similar to what these "experts" propose in this pretty interesting NPR piece.

My God I realized there are a ton of exemptions and loopholes that people take for granted.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/...nomic-platform
Can you summarize the 5 tax proposals and 1 criminal code change these economists could all support?
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
What does "prorated against income" mean?
bad choice of words....let's try the rate of tax based on income...with no loop holes
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:32 PM   #11
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Can you summarize the 5 tax proposals and 1 criminal code change these economists could all support?
Just in case you want names, the panelists from across the political platform who all wholeheartedly agree these are smart policies were: Dean Baker, Center for Economic and Policy Research (self-described left-of-center); Russ Roberts, George Mason University (hardcore free market guy, libertarian); Catherine Baker, Harvard University (professor of health economics, claims to be moderate); Luigi Zingales, University of Chicago ("pro-market, but not necessarily pro business); Robert Frank, Cornell University ("radical pragmatist", Marx scholar).

Interesting to note, these six proposed economic changes are not even HINTED at in the campaign platforms of Obama or Romney.

Eliminate the mortgage interest deduction- This deduction saves the average middle class homeowner thousands per year on taxes. Economists say it's an extremely regressive tax, because the higher the mortgage (people who own big houses) the higher the tax cut. Benefits: Gets rid of distortions in the housing market, will likely lower housing prices so more people will be able to afford homes the LEGITIMATE way (I'm looking at you, Chris Dodd), and the government will be bringing in so much extra money from this that it would make sense to lower everybody's tax rates.

Eliminate deduction for employer-provided healthcare- Baker: "Some people have too much health insurance. If you have insurance that covers everything with no co-payments, people don't really care about the expense of the care they receive." Drives up cost of insurance for everybody, and really screws over people who don't have insurance through their jobs. The fake presidential candidate actor they had who delivered these policies on his fake campaign speech phrased it as, "I have the solution to your out-of-control healthcare costs, I'm going to tax your health insurance benefits." The exemption is just plain inefficient.

Eliminate all corporate income taxes; reduce it from 35% to 0%- Don't prevent companies and corporations from investing in research and development in their own organizations. If you want to tax rich people, then do that, but don't tax their business models

Eliminate all income taxes and payroll taxes; replace it with some form of consumption tax. No need to really explain this one. Most of the panelists like the consumption tax idea. The liberal panelists are in favor of people paying progressive rates according to their income brackets, which might just mean a higher tax rate on goods sold at a certain value so a homeless dude trying to buy a loaf of bread doesn't get screwed over.

More sin taxes- Surprisingly, even the libertarian wanted to see higher taxes on gas and energy in the interest of finding more ways to raise government revenue, and to make the country greener. Roberts, however does not like sin taxes on things like alcohol, cigarettes, soda. Also, he expressed practicality issues on making the entire world adopt these changes to energy pricing and taxing- emphasized that it does no good for the United States to adopt these theoretical reductions in carbon emissions alone

Decriminalize all drugs- This was the one change in the criminal code. No need to explain further how it would save the government all kinds of cash
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Last edited by SNR; 08-13-2012 at 09:38 PM..
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:36 PM   #12
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Important to note that these are changes proposed by economists who belong to think tanks and universities. They aren't proposing these adjustments with the idea of them being politically popular to a majority of people. All they're saying is, "Here are some issues that are really wasting our resources and revenue. Fix them in this way so they begin to work the right way instead of clogging up the works and making the economy more inefficient."

I believe the next episode of this show features a panel of political correspondents who discuss ways to make these economic changes work politically, if they can be touted as anything else but political suicide by the candidate who proposes them. I have not yet caught that particular episode.
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I would read an entire blog of SNR breaking down athletes' musical capabilities like draft scouting reports.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SNR View Post
Just in case you want names, the panelists from across the political platform who all wholeheartedly agree these are smart policies were: Dean Baker, Center for Economic and Policy Research (self-described left-of-center); Russ Roberts, George Mason University (hardcore free market guy, libertarian); Catherine Baker, Harvard University (professor of health economics, claims to be moderate); Luigi Zingales, University of Chicago ("pro-market, but not necessarily pro business); Robert Frank, Cornell University ("radical pragmatist", Marx scholar).

Interesting to note, these six proposed economic changes are not even HINTED at in the campaign platforms of Obama or Romney.

Eliminate the mortgage interest deduction- This deduction saves the average middle class homeowner thousands per year on taxes. Economists say it's an extremely regressive tax, because the higher the mortgage (people who own big houses) the higher the tax cut. Benefits: Gets rid of distortions in the housing market, will likely lower housing prices so more people will be able to afford homes the LEGITIMATE way (I'm looking at you, Chris Dodd), and the government will be bringing in so much extra money from this that it would make sense to lower everybody's tax rates.

Eliminate deduction for employer-provided healthcare- Baker: "Some people have too much health insurance. If you have insurance that covers everything with no co-payments, people don't really care about the expense of the care they receive." Drives up cost of insurance for everybody, and really screws over people who don't have insurance through their jobs. The fake presidential candidate actor they had who delivered these policies on his fake campaign speech phrased it as, "I have the solution to your out-of-control healthcare costs, I'm going to tax your health insurance benefits." The exemption is just plain inefficient.

Eliminate all corporate income taxes; reduce it from 35% to 0%- Don't prevent companies and corporations from investing in research and development in their own organizations. If you want to tax rich people, then do that, but don't tax their business models

Eliminate all income taxes and payroll taxes; replace it with some form of consumption tax. No need to really explain this one. Most of the panelists like the consumption tax idea. The liberal panelists are in favor of people paying progressive rates according to their income brackets, which might just mean a higher tax rate on goods sold at a certain value so a homeless dude trying to buy a loaf of bread doesn't get screwed over.

More sin taxes- Surprisingly, even the libertarian wanted to see higher taxes on gas and energy in the interest of finding more ways to raise government revenue, and to make the country greener. Roberts, however does not like sin taxes on things like alcohol, cigarettes, soda. Also, he expressed practicality issues on making the entire world adopt these changes to energy pricing and taxing- emphasized that it does no good for the United States to adopt these theoretical reductions in carbon emissions alone

Decriminalize all drugs- This was the one change in the criminal code. No need to explain further how it would save the government all kinds of cash
I LOVE all of those... with the caveats that (1) the only sin taxes I like are those on energy (especially petroleum products) to more accurately account for the cost of that energy (including the defense costs we incur to keep middle east energy flowing to the world), and (2) I don't care for the progressive rate part of the consumption tax item, but I might be willing to compromise.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:31 PM   #14
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Figures. Sighing at limited govt types who don't even hint at spending being the issue.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:33 PM   #15
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Figures. Sighing at limited govt types who don't even hint at spending being the issue.
True, and that tax reform plan is horrid.
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