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Old 09-06-2012, 08:29 PM  
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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How Do You Grow the Economy From the Middle Out

I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
One thing you could do immediately is revise some of the Fair Labor Standards Act (which governs overtime and exemption from overtime laws) to limit/eliminate certain classes of what are currently "exempt" employees. By exempt, these employees can be made to work heinous overtime hours for no additional pay. It's great for employers but not so great for overworked employees. Would probably also force a fair number of larger companies to hire as well, since they'd otherwise be forced to pay time-and-a-half etc.

Would need to study the degree to which this would hurt smaller businesses, however, who might not be able to afford the hit. I know for a fact, however, that large corporations in down economies are abusing the crap out of this to squeeze their workforce to hell and gone.
I'm torn on this. I recognize that there is a ton of abuse in the current system... but your proposal(I know you aren't laying out specifics, I'm just talking about on the surface) seems to have far more "bads" than "goods" to it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Rain Man View Post
The first thing I'd like to do is define the middle class. What is it? I think we need to start defining it in terms of standard of living rather than income.
I'll go one further. I'd like to get a definition of "the middle" first. Is that meant to be the "middle class?" If so, then yeah, we need to move on to your question of defining "middle class."

I want exact parameters to work with on this.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:12 PM   #18
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I don't define the middle class as just an income group. It's more than that. It's a way of life, values and thinking.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:13 PM   #19
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I would take my company to Costa Rica if this happened. No offense.

I think the standards are too high now. I've had employees with deadline responsibilities who had to go home because they were hourly, which then leaves them feeling bad and causes deadline problems. The government should not be involved in how I manage my company and how my employees manage their careers.

Like I said, might need to create different classifications for smaller companies or something.

The issue is that in a down economy companies simply squeeze the crap out of their workforce and refuse to hire anyone, and tell their exempt employees to work like dogs or find another job (when there aren't many available). This is part of the reason why "productivity" is up and corporate profits are up but there's no hiring, which doesn't help the recovery.

As for no involvement in managing your company or how your employees manage their careers, I'm sure the meatpackers of Chicago and iron workers of Pittsburgh from 1910 would disagree. Unfortunately, not all employers are as nice as you.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I don't define the middle class as just an income group. It's more than that. It's a way of life, values and thinking.
No offense.. but it doesn't matter what you or I define it as... what matters is how the guys spewing the rhetoric define it. I doubt we ever get an answer, we'll probably have to settle for Direckshun's view on it by proxy.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Like I said, might need to create different classifications for smaller companies or something.

The issue is that in a down economy companies simply squeeze the crap out of their workforce and refuse to hire anyone, and tell their exempt employees to work like dogs or find another job (when there aren't many available). This is part of the reason why "productivity" is up and corporate profits are up but there's no hiring, which doesn't help the recovery.

As for no involvement in managing your company or how your employees manage their careers, I'm sure the meatpackers of Chicago and iron workers of Pittsburgh from 1910 would disagree. Unfortunately, not all employers are as nice as you.
Again... I see the reasoning and even agree... but is anyone better off when that big company instead of hiring more people simply decides it's better to open their new plant in Mexico?
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I don't define the middle class as just an income group. It's more than that. It's a way of life, values and thinking.
Then you would define it wrong. Are you telling me all people who have the same income are going to have the same values and think the same?
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I'll go one further. I'd like to get a definition of "the middle" first. Is that meant to be the "middle class?" If so, then yeah, we need to move on to your question of defining "middle class."

I want exact parameters to work with on this.
It's honestly a hard question no matter how you define it.

Defining "the middle" is a relatively straightforward question of scale, but what's the scale? Is it households whose incomes are within a standard deviation of the mean income? Or the median income? Is it the 50% of households closest to the mean or median? It's kind of subjective.

And let's say that you define it as households that are within an income range of $30,000 to $70,000. So a 22 year-old single engineer making $68,000 a year is middle class, and a family of five making $72,000 a year is affluent? A single mother making $35,000 a year is middle class, and a single woman about to finish law school and is making $29,000 a year on work study is poor?

I think it has to be defined by standard of living, and that's where it gets tricky. A "poor" person today with a cell phone and Internet and a 36" TV probably has a higher standard of living now than a "middle class" person did in 1970. Clothing is far cheaper today when adjusted for inflation. Cars are more reliable. Houses are bigger. I know we've talked about this in other threads, but what is "poor" any more? I heard something on the radio the other day that said that "poor" Americans have a higher standard of living than "middle class" Europeans with our larger homes and cars and dishwashers and stuff.

I think we all tend to envision ourselves when we hear "middle class", and I'm not sure that's accurate.

Or maybe "middle class" just means "people who work without the option of immediate retirement" or something. It's a tough question.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:30 PM   #24
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Then you would define it wrong. Are you telling me all people who have the same income are going to have the same values and think the same?
I think she's saying Romney's middle-class b/c he signed away his stocks on an ironing board in college.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:32 PM   #25
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I would enact policies that would encourage employers to hire part time employees instead of full time ones... that's the ticket!!!
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Like I said, might need to create different classifications for smaller companies or something.

The issue is that in a down economy companies simply squeeze the crap out of their workforce and refuse to hire anyone, and tell their exempt employees to work like dogs or find another job (when there aren't many available). This is part of the reason why "productivity" is up and corporate profits are up but there's no hiring, which doesn't help the recovery.

As for no involvement in managing your company or how your employees manage their careers, I'm sure the meatpackers of Chicago and iron workers of Pittsburgh from 1910 would disagree. Unfortunately, not all employers are as nice as you.
I hate those meatpackers and iron workers. They cause me all sorts of annoyance.

I get your point on this, but I'm not sure how to fix it. The government can't mandate that companies hire people, so your approach of limiting their productivity seems like the only way to go. But limiting hours and mandating overtime and stuff like that forces both employees and employers to become clockwatchers, which I don't think is good for anyone.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
One thing you could do immediately is revise some of the Fair Labor Standards Act (which governs overtime and exemption from overtime laws) to limit/eliminate certain classes of what are currently "exempt" employees. By exempt, these employees can be made to work heinous overtime hours for no additional pay. It's great for employers but not so great for overworked employees. Would probably also force a fair number of larger companies to hire as well, since they'd otherwise be forced to pay time-and-a-half etc.

Would need to study the degree to which this would hurt smaller businesses, however, who might not be able to afford the hit. I know for a fact, however, that large corporations in down economies are abuisng the crap out of this to squeeze their workforce to hell and gone.
Well the big lie of both parties is how they both seem incapable of addressing the needs of small business.

How hard is it, really, to verify a small business is really a small business?

Regardless, you can't force companies to hire and you can't force them to pay a certain wage. If they can't accomplish the job at the rate they're employed prices will go up. There's no escaping the math.

But I still don't see how you grow the economy from the middle out when the capital is at the top. The best way to grow the middle class is to let them in on some of the profits generated by the movement of capital. At least that's what history seems to show, but I could be wrong.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:39 PM   #28
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I'm torn on this. I recognize that there is a ton of abuse in the current system... but your proposal(I know you aren't laying out specifics, I'm just talking about on the surface) seems to have far more "bads" than "goods" to it.
If I had to document the exact value of my employee output it would cost me a lot more to operate and I can tell you with absolute certainty my prices would go up and/or I'd have fewer employees.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:41 PM   #29
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The more I think about it, the more freaky this gets.

If you define the middle class as the people in the center part of the population's income curve, you're always going to have people that you define as poor.

But with technology advances, everyone's standard of living keeps going up (barring economic collapse), even if their incomes are stagnant. So if everything comes up roses and society prospers and we all get those flying cars that we were promised, what does it mean to be poor? If you have everything you want and need, but your income is in the bottom 10%, are you still poor? Do we as a society care about poor people?

I'm by no means saying we're there, but I'm offering a theory that if we compare people against each other, we will always have rich people and we'll always have poor people. But if we reach a point where the poor people's needs are being met and they're living comfortable lives, then rich and poor shouldn't matter other than vanity and the ability to buy that third holographic robot fight simulator.

I think most Americans throughout history would look at our lower middle class today and think that they live like kings.

What it says to me is that, in an age of advanced technology, we should not measure ourselves by the fate of the middle class, but rather by the fate of the poorest in our society. That should be our measuring stick, and when they are living comfortable lives, then we have truly succeeded as a civilization.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Like I said, might need to create different classifications for smaller companies or something.

The issue is that in a down economy companies simply squeeze the crap out of their workforce and refuse to hire anyone, and tell their exempt employees to work like dogs or find another job (when there aren't many available). This is part of the reason why "productivity" is up and corporate profits are up but there's no hiring, which doesn't help the recovery.

As for no involvement in managing your company or how your employees manage their careers, I'm sure the meatpackers of Chicago and iron workers of Pittsburgh from 1910 would disagree. Unfortunately, not all employers are as nice as you.
You're right about squeezing the workforce but leave out what Obamacare has done to corporations.
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