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Old 09-06-2012, 07:29 PM  
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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How Do You Grow the Economy From the Middle Out

I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:15 PM   #91
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Then you would define it wrong. Are you telling me all people who have the same income are going to have the same values and think the same?
I didn't say that. I still stand by it too.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:18 PM   #92
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Wiki definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:19 PM   #93
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In the eyes of the majority of Americans health care is a right, a basic human right.
It's sad that you actually believe this. It's painfully clear you have no clue what a RIGHT actually is.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:25 PM   #94
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It's sad that you actually believe this. It's painfully clear you have no clue what a RIGHT actually is.
Although health care isnt a right. I dont see why the richest country in the world cant afford some kind of system that will provide some help to all of its citizens when they get sick.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #95
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Although health care isnt a right. I dont see why the richest country in the world cant afford some kind of system that will provide some help to all of its citizens when they get sick.
a) We're not the richest country in the world. We're broke. Which is a great time to add new entitlements that we can't afford.

b) We had a system that provided help to all of its citizens when they got sick. It wasn't particularly great care or cost-efficient for 10% of the population, but it did exist.

Now we have a bureaucratic nightmare that will soon become evident. In addition to giving the federal government a new way to add new taxes on new people, it also will demand that even more taxes be levied, more money borrowed, or fewer services provided.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:55 PM   #96
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Although health care isnt a right. I dont see why the richest country in the world cant afford some kind of system that will provide some help to all of its citizens when they get sick.
Now, THIS is a perfectly reasonable way to think about the issue. I just can't understand how someone could be so screwed up as to call it a RIGHT. It devalues the very concept of rights.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:02 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by RINGLEADER View Post
a) We're not the richest country in the world. We're broke. Which is a great time to add new entitlements that we can't afford.

b) We had a system that provided help to all of its citizens when they got sick. It wasn't particularly great care or cost-efficient for 10% of the population, but it did exist.

Now we have a bureaucratic nightmare that will soon become evident. In addition to giving the federal government a new way to add new taxes on new people, it also will demand that even more taxes be levied, more money borrowed, or fewer services provided.
My 20 year old son is on my insurance today because of Obamacare. He's perfectly healthy but if he get in a car wreck and has to have a spleen removed or some kind of hospital stay he would have been bankrupt and his credit ruined before he even got started in life. Obamacare rocks for me.

I have high blood pressure. Try getting "normally" priced health insurance on the open market if I lose my job. No denial for pre-exsisting conditions, Obamacare rocks for me.

If my wife gets cancer and it takes a long time and a lot of money to beat that cancer, the insurance company cant say we have given you enough coverage, your being kicked off the plan even though you have been paying your premiums for 20 years. Obamacare changed that policy.

I've had health isurance my whole adult life but now its going to be better because of Obamacare.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:32 PM   #98
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What it says to me is that, in an age of advanced technology, we should not measure ourselves by the fate of the middle class, but rather by the fate of the poorest in our society. That should be our measuring stick, and when they are living comfortable lives, then we have truly succeeded as a civilization.
And therein lies the rub, because with those same technology advancements comes the need to redefine poor. A large portion of society seems unwilling to accept that because of said advancements, a person may possess material goods that seem excessive when in fact they are pretty much a requirement to move out of poverty. Take for example a cell phone with a data plan. It seems like a luxury and draws the ire of people when the same person could have a land line and basic cable service and pay more on those two than the data plan phone. As for big tvs heck I think you can get a 36" tv for only a few bucks more than a 19" one provided you can even find the smaller one for sale. I guess I am saying that running water and heat was at one point a luxury and is now considered something that is a part of life for everyone except the most exceedingly poor.

I guess poor gets tossed in with art and porn in that we know it when we see it maybe?
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:01 PM   #99
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:01 PM   #100
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My 20 year old son is on my insurance today because of Obamacare. He's perfectly healthy but if he get in a car wreck and has to have a spleen removed or some kind of hospital stay he would have been bankrupt and his credit ruined before he even got started in life. Obamacare rocks for me.
If Romney wins and it's repealed, you can be certain that this provision will be in the replace part of repeal and replace.

Quote:
I have high blood pressure. Try getting "normally" priced health insurance on the open market if I lose my job. No denial for pre-exsisting conditions, Obamacare rocks for me.
You can't be denied for pre-existing conditions if you set up a small business policy. Just need two people and you get great coverage regardless of your high BP.

Quote:
If my wife gets cancer and it takes a long time and a lot of money to beat that cancer, the insurance company cant say we have given you enough coverage, your being kicked off the plan even though you have been paying your premiums for 20 years. Obamacare changed that policy.
Well, that's a math problem. And Obamacare will run right smack into the same issue regardless of what Obama tells you. It's math, my friend, and you can't get something for nothing.

Quote:
I've had health isurance my whole adult life but now its going to be better because of Obamacare.
We can't afford it. The taxes won't cover the costs. You won't be able to control costs by applying limits (look for a great exodus of high-quality doctors to Bermuda or some other destination that will serve as the weigh station for the rich). You can't provide these services without raising taxes on more people, borrowing more money we can't afford to borrow, or curtailing services. It's a crap bill. There's a reason why the proponents of it immediately sought waivers from it.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:05 PM   #101
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If your 20 year old son were a student, he could have been on your insurance the previous 8 years. Your son has no assets at 20, he had nothing to lose. You weigh what, 400lbs? Not trying to be mean, but do you think My insurance should be higher because of across the board coverage? I don't, any more than you should be dinged for my health issues. Socialized health care is substandard to what we have and I don't want it, even if it makes liberals feel better.

As for your magic number that defines wealthy business that should be hammered, do you know what will happen? I do. Businesses that big are large enough to hire good enough attorneys that they'll essentially subdivide divisions of their companies to stay under those thresholds and it will be legal.

I'm not saying rich shouldn't pay taxes, I'm not suggesting that big business shouldn't be taxed. What they need to do is close loopholes for deductions or set tax brackets that reward job creation.

I'm becoming more of a fan of the concept of no payroll taxes, other than maybe SS...and going to consumption based taxes if the flat tax won't work.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:06 PM   #102
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My 20 year old son is on my insurance today because of Obamacare. He's perfectly healthy but if he get in a car wreck and has to have a spleen removed or some kind of hospital stay he would have been bankrupt and his credit ruined before he even got started in life. Obamacare rocks for me.

I have high blood pressure. Try getting "normally" priced health insurance on the open market if I lose my job. No denial for pre-exsisting conditions, Obamacare rocks for me.

If my wife gets cancer and it takes a long time and a lot of money to beat that cancer, the insurance company cant say we have given you enough coverage, your being kicked off the plan even though you have been paying your premiums for 20 years. Obamacare changed that policy.

I've had health isurance my whole adult life but now its going to be better because of Obamacare.
It may rock for you but it's not going to give people what you think it will—or without other costs. You're naive and think money grows on trees.

I read an independent analysis on the Mediscare wars of Obamacare and Ryan's Medicare. I will tell you Obamacare doesn't rock for the elderly, despite what Obama claims, if they knew how it really works. It cuts funds for them and gives it to youth. Govt health insurance is still going to have to contain costs. It will be done on the heads of those who use it most which is in a person's later years.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:13 PM   #103
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I keep hearing this line from the Dems. How, precisely, do you grow the economy "from the middle out?"
Here's my take fwiw.

The middle class is the largest (by far) segment of society. If you cut their taxes (or at least don't increase them), create jobs in industry in part through new growth opportunitys (clean coal, smart vehicles etc that Obama has talked at length about) then more middle class people make more, more people who are poor become middle class by working those jobs and all of those people have and spend more because they aren't paniced about paying the bills or taking care of their family as much as they have been. More spending equals more money flowing equals a healthier economy.

The truly rich are what... about 2% of the population? 2% doesn't work, spend, contribute enough to turn things around for the whole country. The majority has to do that and when there are new opportunitys the middle class now can get better jobs and the poor can get something to help bring them into the middle class. It's obviously a long road but the middle class is America at it's core.

Maybe simplistic but it's how I see it.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:14 PM   #104
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If Romney wins and it's repealed, you can be certain that this provision will be in the replace part of repeal and replace.



You can't be denied for pre-existing conditions if you set up a small business policy. Just need two people and you get great coverage regardless of your high BP.



Well, that's a math problem. And Obamacare will run right smack into the same issue regardless of what Obama tells you. It's math, my friend, and you can't get something for nothing.



We can't afford it. The taxes won't cover the costs. You won't be able to control costs by applying limits (look for a great exodus of high-quality doctors to Bermuda or some other destination that will serve as the weigh station for the rich). You can't provide these services without raising taxes on more people, borrowing more money we can't afford to borrow, or curtailing services. It's a crap bill. There's a reason why the proponents of it immediately sought waivers from it.
You are going to need 60 votes in the Senate and a Romney presidency to repeal Obamacare. Not going to happen. Republicans vowed for years to repeal Social Security too. Just not going to happen.


I'm not lying and saying I'm a business to to get health insurance. Thats your solution?
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:26 PM   #105
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You are going to need 60 votes in the Senate and a Romney presidency to repeal Obamacare. Not going to happen. Republicans vowed for years to repeal Social Security too. Just not going to happen.
Then expect things to worsen economically in this country. The kind of improvement needed is just not going to happen.
Unless you buy into the next bubble with all the QEs and money printing—but that will burst eventually too.
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