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Old 08-14-2012, 12:18 PM  
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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Apple overhauling its 30 pin connector



Only Apple.....



http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/14/app...8TechCrunch%29


What happens when you change one port? Quite a lot, actually. Apple introduced the 30-pin iPod port on April 28, 2003. That makes the technology – a fairly streamlined solution for 2003 – nine years old and, thanks to the iPhone’s popularity, essentially ubiquitous. Now, however, as news leaks about either a 19- or 9-pin overhaul of the technology, there’s something important to consider: the install base of 30-pin devices is wild and deep and a simple change could create an e-waste problem if not properly handled.

To be clear: this new pin layout is coming and it’s coming soon. Whether it arrives in this generation or the next still remains to be seen, the sources I reached out to agreed that the switch was imminent.

Apple has sold over approximately 610 million devices with a 30-pin dock connector. There are no hard numbers on iPod dock sales available, but analysts estimate $2 to $3 billion in sales on iPod accessories per year. These are back of the envelope calculations, but assume a fourth of those are $100 docks – some are less, some are much more. That gives us about 5 million docks a year over nine years. That’s 45 million devices in essentially perfect working order that will be partially obsoleted by this move.

“Just imagine how many hotel rooms are fitted with alarm clocks that have a 30-pin dock connector,” said Arman Sadeghi, CEO of AllGreenRecycling, an e-waste handler. “Doing away with the 30-pin dock connector without developing any kind of backwards compatibility option would cause millions of pieces of accessories to become obsolete prematurely. Currently, there are tens of thousands of different devices such as chargers, alarm clocks, docking stations and other devices that work with the 30-pin connector. If this connector was replaced, it would cause a slow but very steady flow of those items coming out of use and into the ewaste stream.”

In short, Apple would relegate a great number of iPod docks to the scrap heap. Arguably, the vast majority of users, especially users using more expensive docks that connect to home entertainment systems and speakers, would invest in a small adapter that will convert a 30-pin jack to the smaller model, but a fraction of those will relegate those old docks to the junk pile. Once the 30-pin is phased out, however, there’s the secondary problem of obsolete iPods.

“The obvious problem will be with people throwing out old accessories but there is another issue as well,” said Sadeghi. “The value of Apple devices with the old connector will drop as well which will cause a large wave of those items entering the eWaste steam as well. iPods and other small devices that people have had for many years will start becoming less desirable in favor of newer versions that will have the same connector as their new iPhone. This effect may, in fact, prove to be a bigger generator of eWaste than the obsolete accessories.”

This sort of move isn’t new, but I suspect that this might be the first major mass exodus from one port architecture to another since serial connections gave way to USB and even that move took years to complete. Apple is notorious for railroading users into technologies although they usually pick the tech that eventually proves to be the winner (there’s a reason there weren’t Compact Flash card readers on earlier MacBooks before the addition of the SD card slot.) Where Apple is at fault is in the speed with which they’re going to push this through. They will sell millions of iPhones and millions of adapters, and the new port will also revitalize the stagnant accessories market. But it will also encourage long-time users to “upgrade” their docks to support the new standard (or at least spend $10 on a compatible adapter).

It’s also not Apple’s fault that accessory makers hitched their wagon to the Apple star. There was and is a lot of money to be made. But this change will change things considerably and the trash and recycling it will generate is has the potential to be more than impressive.

The real impact can be seen as negligible. Docks are made of plastic and a few magnets. In a perfect world those docks would end up at an ewaste location where they will be recycled into new products or they will end up in the garage sale and secondary market, used by millions who just don’t want to or can’t upgrade.

But in a world of increasingly scarce resources, it’s an interesting thought exercise to see what a minor change in on port on a popular phone can do to an entire ecosystem of accessories. Apple is lucky that an industry made hardware solely for their devices. Now we’re about to see what happens when that industry – and the consumers who bought into that constellation of accessories – suddenly has to shift direction.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:21 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Jesus. NO. USB 2.0 has 5, USB 3.0 can have 11. You'd think the author would check shit like that. FAIL
What are you talking about? The MicroUSB connector everyone is familiar with only has 5 pins.

You are confused, and you're wrong about this. And you even posted misinformation on that blog writer's site.

The microUSB adapter that just about all other phones use, including the revered Galaxy SIII looks like this:



That's the adapter that everybody is whining about the iPhone 5 not using. But that is a 5 pin adapter. Here's the pinout:



5 pins. Apple lost functionality going down to 8 pins, which was stupid in my opinion. But they still needed more than 5 pins. That's what the author is saying.

USB 3 micro does not have 11 pins. What you're likely thinking of is the 10 pin USB 3 Micro B. Which looks like this:





That's your 10(11ish?) pin connector. But how many devies currently use that? That's what you're arguing with, but that's not what other devices currently use.

And you are also wrong about the amperage part too. MicroUSB like the beloved format everybody wanted, can only transmit 900mA of current.

Quote:
A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and 150 mA in USB 3.0. A device may draw a maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) from a port in USB 2.0; 6 (900 mA) in USB 3.0. There are two types of devices: low-power and high-power. A low-power device draws at most 1 unit load, with minimum operating voltage of 4.4 V in USB 2.0, and 4 V in USB 3.0.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Power

The iPad requires 2A of current. MicroUSB does not and cannot provide that, as pointed out above. For reference, the Galaxy SIII requires 700mA.

That blog writer made some stupid errors in writing, which has been pointed out, and the author corrected them. But he does have a point about most of that. You should post an apology on that poor guy's site for hammering on him.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:14 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
What are you talking about? The MicroUSB connector everyone is familiar with only has 5 pins.

You are confused, and you're wrong about this. And you even posted misinformation on that blog writer's site.

The microUSB adapter that just about all other phones use, including the revered Galaxy SIII looks like this:


That's the adapter that everybody is whining about the iPhone 5 not using. But that is a 5 pin adapter. Here's the pinout:


5 pins. Apple lost functionality going down to 8 pins, which was stupid in my opinion. But they still needed more than 5 pins. That's what the author is saying.

USB 3 micro does not have 11 pins. What you're likely thinking of is the 10 pin USB 3 Micro B. Which looks like this:


That's your 10(11ish?) pin connector. But how many devies currently use that? That's what you're arguing with, but that's not what other devices currently use.

And you are also wrong about the amperage part too. MicroUSB like the beloved format everybody wanted, can only transmit 900mA of current.


The iPad requires 2A of current. MicroUSB does not and cannot provide that, as pointed out above. For reference, the Galaxy SIII requires 700mA.

That blog writer made some stupid errors in writing, which has been pointed out, and the author corrected them. But he does have a point about most of that. You should post an apology on that poor guy's site for hammering on him.
NO I am not talking about the 5 pin usb. I AM talking about the micro-b usb3 11 pin connector. YES not many devices are using it yet, BUT it is backwards compatible and a STANDARD that more and more devices are using when they need the extra pins. I was lead to believe that certain models of the SIII were using it but if not, who cares? The STANDARD is new but gaining adoption and plenty of devices ARE out there and most importantly.. it's a ****ing industry STANDARD.

There was NO REASON for Apple to go with a proprietary connector. PERIOD. Need more pins? Use SuperSpeed micro-b. (and get 2 extra pins for the trouble)

And you are DEAD wrong on amperage. My touchpad pulls 2.2A.. over an OLD USB connector. So, once again you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
The problem is getting the power WHILE also communicating. Which USB3.0 (micro-b) will let you do at 1.5A. Plenty. And why even bring up the iPad? it doesn't use the new connector yet so claiming it will need some theoretical amperage is dumb, they could easily set the next model to take in 1.5 while communicating and more when only charging.


You seem to confuse me with those saying it should be the old USB connector. Nope. Use the NEW standard (if you have to) and you'd still be backward compatible with only slight loss of functionality. Instead they introduce an unnecessary proprietary connector.

You can NOT find a technical reason (besides reversibility) that makes sense. Sorry, it just doesn't exist.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:23 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
You are confused, and you're wrong about this. And you even posted misinformation on that blog writer's site.
And seriously, **** off for telling me I posted misinformation. I posted the following...
Quote:
You REALLY need to do your research BEFORE writing an article on a topic. You’re woefully unprepared and ignorant regarding USB 3.0; a standard that is almost 4 years old now. USB 3.0 can support data speeds of 5 Gbit/s and charge at 1.5A while communicating. It can max out at 5A charging.
There is no TECHNICAL excuse for Apple not to have made the switch.
USB3.0 is almost 4 years old - check
5 Gbit/s - check
charge at 1.5A (with plug/play communication) - check
max at 5A - check

...btw you didn't see many devices jump to use the new connector because they simply don't need the extra bandwidth. If Apple HAS to have more pins.. the standard has been out there for 4 years... use it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:26 AM   #154
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And since you clearly need the technical help.. it's 10 pins + shield which (for those of us with more knowledge of the subject) equals 11 pins.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:35 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Great Expectations View Post
What are the chances of bricking it when rooting?Drinkel gonna get his swerve on.
Depends on the phone.

What do you have?
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:46 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
NO I am not talking about the 5 pin usb. I AM talking about the micro-b usb3 11 pin connector. YES not many devices are using it yet, BUT it is backwards compatible and a STANDARD that more and more devices are using when they need the extra pins. I was lead to believe that certain models of the SIII were using it but if not, who cares? The STANDARD is new but gaining adoption and plenty of devices ARE out there and most importantly.. it's a ****ing industry STANDARD.

There was NO REASON for Apple to go with a proprietary connector. PERIOD. Need more pins? Use SuperSpeed micro-b. (and get 2 extra pins for the trouble)

And you are DEAD wrong on amperage. My touchpad pulls 2.2A.. over an OLD USB connector. So, once again you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
The problem is getting the power WHILE also communicating. Which USB3.0 (micro-b) will let you do at 1.5A. Plenty. And why even bring up the iPad? it doesn't use the new connector yet so claiming it will need some theoretical amperage is dumb, they could easily set the next model to take in 1.5 while communicating and more when only charging.


You seem to confuse me with those saying it should be the old USB connector. Nope. Use the NEW standard (if you have to) and you'd still be backward compatible with only slight loss of functionality. Instead they introduce an unnecessary proprietary connector.

You can NOT find a technical reason (besides reversibility) that makes sense. Sorry, it just doesn't exist.
Ohh. So you wanted Apple to adopt a different new connector, that would have also required all current Apple users to buy new peripherals and adapters and hypothetically put millions of accessory manufacturers out of business? Essentially putting current Apple device owners in the exact same predicament that they're bitching about now? You admit the standard is not new, just like Apple's Lightning.

You were confusing 5 pin microUSB with 10pin microUSB B through the entire thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I want to hear the excuses made by fanbois for why they didn't just use micro usb3... like everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
micro usb is far from being analogous to any outdated tech. If Apple gave a shit about the consumer it would work with the industry instead of against it. Look at IBM, Intel and even Microsoft in recent years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
The form factor is only a matter of choice. MicroUSB would do the job just fine if Apple was willing to go with the STANDARD form factor. their only excuse is that they REALLY feel that having a reversible plug is THAT important.
And regarding your old Touchpad pulling 2.2A, that's because it's plugged into a wall adapter. Which doubles up pins to use for power and allows for higher amperage charging. Data pins aren't used when plugged into a charging adapter, and that allows for additional pins to be used for sending another line of power. You're not getting 2.2A from USB 5 pin to USB 5 pin. Hence the communication aspect.

I bring up the iPad, because it cannot be charged by being plugged into a computer's USB port. Because it requires too much amperage. It can only charge when you plug the USB port into the iPad wall charger, which doubles up unused pins to use for increased amps. That's the only way it can currently charge. The next iPad will use the Lightning adapter as well. Apple wanted to consolidate the adapters and have Lightning be the future. As stupid as I think that is, they couldn't have used MicroUSB if they wanted to consolidate. And MicroUSB 3 vB would be no different than switching to Lightning.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:52 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
And seriously, **** off for telling me I posted misinformation. I posted the following...


USB3.0 is almost 4 years old - check
5 Gbit/s - check
charge at 1.5A (with plug/play communication) - check
max at 5A - check

...btw you didn't see many devices jump to use the new connector because they simply don't need the extra bandwidth. If Apple HAS to have more pins.. the standard has been out there for 4 years... use it.
You know damn good and well that the blog author was not talking about comparing Apple Lightning connector to the USB3 Micro V3 11 pin connector. You were confusing the two and talking about qualities of both through the entire thread. And it's clear the blog author wasn't talking about the 11pin connector. That's not what the general populace is enraged about and you know it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:01 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
Ohh. So you wanted Apple to adopt a different new connector, that would have also required all current Apple users to buy new peripherals and adapters and hypothetically put millions of accessory manufacturers out of business? Essentially putting current Apple device owners in the exact same predicament that they're bitching about now? You admit the standard is not new, just like Apple's Lightning.

You were confusing 5 pin microUSB with 10pin microUSB B through the entire thread.
NO.. YOU may have been confusing the connectors. I have not been. My only fault is assuming all Galaxy SIII's use the new connector. Mea Culpa. BUT don't you dare try to ****ing tell me what I WAS thinking or saying. I happen to know this subject, I don't just look up shit on wikipedia. Earlier in the thread, before we knew the pin count... I argued that it could all be accomplished via usb connectors (yes, even 2.0)... and that is still true. BUT since you failed to grasp the concept that "mo pin does NOT equal mo better" I have moved on to something you SHOULD be able to comprehend. It does not invalidate what I posted earlier but the fact that the NEW Apple connector has FEWER pins than one of the standards for USB (micro-b 3.0) COMPLETELY invalidates your entire argument.

AND YES if Apple needs a new connector then use the STANDARD that everyone else will be using and is compatible with the old STANDARD connector as well. I have no problem with them changing connectors. I have never said otherwise. I have a problem that they didn't adopt a STANDARD one instead of another proprietary piece of shit. No TECHNICAL reason for them not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
And regarding your old Touchpad pulling 2.2A, that's because it's plugged into a wall adapter. Which doubles up pins to use for power and allows for higher amperage charging. Data pins aren't used when plugged into a charging adapter, and that allows for additional pins to be used for sending another line of power. You're not getting 2.2A from USB 5 pin to USB 5 pin. Hence the communication aspect.

I bring up the iPad, because it cannot be charged by being plugged into a computer's USB port. Because it requires too much amperage. It can only charge when you plug the USB port into the iPad wall charger, which doubles up unused pins to use for increased amps. That's the only way it can currently charge. The next iPad will use the Lightning adapter as well. Apple wanted to consolidate the adapters and have Lightning be the future. As stupid as I think that is, they couldn't have used MicroUSB if they wanted to consolidate. And MicroUSB 3 vB would be no different than switching to Lightning.
And this entire two paragraphs of nonsense means what? YES I know it is pulling 2.2 from the wall without communication.. I stated as much by showing that the new standards allow for 1.5A AND 5A depending on if you are communicating or not.

And you end by making NO SENSE whatsoever. WHY exactly could they not use USB 3.0 micro-B for the new phone and the next iPad?

They could pull 1.5A to charge while plugged into a computer and 5A from the wall. The form factor is small/thin enough... and it has enough of your oh so valuable pins.

So in short... we agree that it is fine for Apple to change form factors after 10 years. No problem there. We agree that Apple users will bitch about it no matter what and they'll just have to deal. Where you seem to be getting STUCK is that you are making excuses for them NOT adopting an established standard(USB 3.0 micro-b) when there is NO TECHNICAL excuse out there.

FAIL.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:04 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
You know damn good and well that the blog author was not talking about comparing Apple Lightning connector to the USB3 Micro V3 11 pin connector. You were confusing the two and talking about qualities of both through the entire thread. And it's clear the blog author wasn't talking about the 11pin connector. That's not what the general populace is enraged about and you know it.
I know exactly what he was saying and he FAILED because he was either ignorant (I gave him the benefit of the doubt) or a misleading liar by not mentioning USB 3.0 micro-b.

AND you are dead wrong. People are outraged at yet another proprietary connector. If Apple had brought out a micro-b connector.. you'd still get outrage from some.. but many would point out A)it's a standard, even if you may not be familiar with it yet and B)it's backwards compatible with existing cables/devices/etc (although of course you'd lose some functionality or speed... which is funny because that is EXACTLY what is happening with the new connector anyway)

Maybe I'm wrong and Apple users are so stupid that I'm misreading their outrage. If so, sorry, I gave them the benefit of the doubt as well.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:11 AM   #160
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I would have had no problems seeing them switch to the 11 pin USB3 connector. That's not my argument. That would have been better than what they chose.

But you posted on that guy's blog the following:

Quote:
But you still fail to address how my post proves your assertion that a usb connection wouldn’t be adequate due to either pin count or charging reqs. Both of those assertions are false. Apple could have used a USB3 connector without any loss of functionality(unless you are just THAT enamored with the idea that the plug is reversible). fact is, this was a move to stay proprietary simply for the sake of staying proprietary. I have yet to see ONE solid technical justification for it.
The guy was talking about the 5 pin MicroUSB connector in his article. It was clear that he was. He stated it directly in his article:

Quote:
People keep asking why Apple didn’t opt for the micro-USB connector. The answer is simple: that connector isn’t smart enough. It has only 5 pins: +5V, Ground, 2 digital data pins, and a sense pin
Yet you replied questioning his pin count. Read both quotes. How much more obvious can it be? You jumped his ass when you were talking about the 11 pin adapter, and he was clearly talking about the 5 pin, which is what everyone is in an uproar over.

Whatever man. This is getting stupid.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:18 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
The guy was talking about the 5 pin MicroUSB connector in his article. It was clear that he was. He stated it directly in his article:



Yet you replied questioning his pin count. Read both quotes. How much more obvious can it be? You jumped his ass when you were talking about the 11 pin adapter, and he was clearly talking about the 5 pin, which is what everyone is in an uproar over.

Whatever man. This is getting stupid.
The guy obviously didn't know his shit and his error of omission proved that. YES he was talking about an old 5 pin connector but by NOT mentioning that an 11-pin connector existed and was a standard he was either being misleading or ignorant. It's pretty clear from his multiple mistakes that he simply didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

To say.. "well you can't use a standard because it's not good enough" and then quote a full revision back (over 4 years past being the current standard) is misleading (AT BEST). He should have FIRST educated himself on the subject then SECOND educated his readers. He did neither and got his ass jumped. Now more people will know he is talking out of his ass and should be taken with a grain of salt.

AND fact is he was just completely wrong on charging specs, regardless of connector.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:20 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
I would have had no problems seeing them switch to the 11 pin USB3 connector.
And here we agree. They picked a proprietary adapter for NO TECHNICAL reasons. It's a money grab. If they pull it off, it makes sense financially. BUT they risk pissing people off who know better... AND Europe is really not gonna like it. (They are huge on USB.. pretty sure it's law.. no joke)
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:30 AM   #163
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The guy obviously didn't know his shit and his error of omission proved that. YES he was talking about an old 5 pin connector but by NOT mentioning that an 11-pin connector existed and was a standard he was either being misleading or ignorant. It's pretty clear from his multiple mistakes that he simply didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

To say.. "well you can't use a standard because it's not good enough" and then quote a full revision back (over 4 years past being the current standard) is misleading (AT BEST). He should have FIRST educated himself on the subject then SECOND educated his readers. He did neither and got his ass jumped. Now more people will know he is talking out of his ass and should be taken with a grain of salt.

AND fact is he was just completely wrong on charging specs, regardless of connector.
If you would have made any effort to show the distinction between the 2 formats in your rant on his page, I might be more inclined to believe you. But you confused the two just like you did in this discussion. The guy clearly flubbed some points, and I already admitted that. But you introduced the 10pin connector when it wasn't discussed at all. The guy even admitted that he didn't mention a thing about USB3, and that wasn't what he was talking about. He also admitted his ignorance on the amperage:

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Note that this refers to individual pins; I’ve been told that several devices manage to get around this by some trick or other, but I couldn’t find any standard for doing so.
That trick he's talking about is using multiple pins not used for data, to transmit power. Doubling up pins like I mentioned above.

You jumped him for something he admitted ignorance to.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:36 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
If you would have made any effort to show the distinction between the 2 formats in your rant on his page, I might be more inclined to believe you. But you confused the two just like you did in this discussion. The guy clearly flubbed some points, and I already admitted that. But you introduced the 10pin connector when it wasn't discussed at all. The guy even admitted that he didn't mention a thing about USB3, and that wasn't what he was talking about. He also admitted his ignorance on the amperage:



That trick he's talking about is using multiple pins not used for data, to transmit power. Doubling up pins like I mentioned above.

You jumped him for something he admitted ignorance to.
ok #1 it's ELEVEN.. THIS ONE GOES TO ELEVEN! (you count the shield in the pin count generally)

#2 I'M not confusing anything. Yes, I shouldn't have assumed everyone would keep up... I could have made it clearer... but a lot of this is stuff I just assume people in tech should know. Yes he admitted he didn't mention USB3... my point is that he should have. He clearly just doesn't know his shit and it shows.

#3 I would give him a pass on charging but some of what he posted and never corrected is just flat out wrong and obviously just misread crap from wikipedia. He goes back and corrects that and he gets a pass.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:44 AM   #165
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In the same way that the Apple connector is a 9 pin.... Tip ground.....

It's too bad Apple is arrogant and tries to influence tech that other people already developed, to "better" it for their own illogical manners . I'm not denying that.

But Apple Lightning is much smaller than 11pin USB3, and they knew they could get away with it.

Ehh.
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