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Old 09-12-2009, 10:50 AM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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It's time for large # of troops to GTFO of Afghanistan.

It's a no win situation for us. Brave Americans are fighting a war in which there is no hope of winning. In this type of war there will never be a "winner". All we are doing is providing easy targets for Taliban to kill.

We can't just ignore military history there and say our effort will be different.

We went into Afganistan with 1,300 troops. When the Taliban fell we had 2.500 troops on the ground. We now have 60,000 troops on the ground and the Taliban control 40-70% of the country's territory.

The new commander in Afghanistan says he sees no evidence of a large Al-Quaeda presense in Afghanistan. That is and will always be the only reason for us to be in Afghanistan. The only reason we are there in the first place. The only reason to sacrifice American lives.

I think we should hunt down and kill every single member of Al=Quaeda, no matter where they are hiding.

We shouldn't be sacrificing American lives to nation build in Afghanistan. Yeah, they want to go back to the 12th century but why should we sacrifice American lives to keep that from happening? Not worth it.

But if we leave the Taliban will take over swiftly and then provide a safe -haven for Al-Quaeda? We don't let that happen. We put cruise millsle up their azz. We send out the drones. We use special forces to take them out.

Edited:

I'm convinced that this is the right decision for these reasons.
  • We can't nation build in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be using our resources and sacrificing our troops to help them. Thats not why we are there. $300 billion spent so far. 900 brave Americans dead. Entering it's 9th year. Just when will it be enough?
  • The argument that the Taliban and Al-Quaeda will just come back may be true but there are several problems with that. Al-Quaeda can be anywhere in the world. So we keep them out of Afghanistan, they show up in Pakistan, Somalia, where ever. I read there is only 100 Al-Quaeda operatives in Afghanistan. There are probably more than that in the USA. If we keep them out of Afghanistan. they will just go some other place. We need a 21st century approach. We won't be able to defeat Al-Quaeda with conventional weapons and strategy. We can always go back in with surgical strikes to take out prime targets and more large scale attacks to prevent Al-Quaeda from establishing bases again. We can't let 100,000 Americans become easy to reach targets for Al-Quaeda.
  • The government is corrupt beyond repair. For those who want to nation build, how can you with a totally corrupt government that the people don't trust? Nation building won't work no matter how many troops or how much money you throw at the problem with a corrupt government distrusted by the people.
  • Afghanistan has no resources. What exactly are they going to make money at, build their country with? It would be a transfer of wealth from us to them.
  • The population outside of Kabul is run by drug overlords. The majority of the population works in the poppy fields because its the only way they can feed their family. How are we going to change that? Provide jobs for those people to feed their families? A lot of those poppy field profits are going right to the Taliban. Just how are you going to end this cycle without a major infusion of American money. Again, a transfer of wealth.

Last edited by BigRedChief; 10-27-2009 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:59 PM   #166
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JFC people on this board are f...ing clueless. Afghanistan is a winnable war? In what century? Winnable how? Give me some metric that will say that American forces are no longer needed and they are now a democratic society.

Here's a hint....They will never be a democratic society. Islam is not compatible will democratic values. Hence the Theocracy that exists. Oh, they go along with the mirage of trying to convert to a democracy so that they can extort billions of dollars from the U.S. so politicians can have a talking point for their re-election campaigns, but it will NEVER be a democracy.

Once the powers that be come to this OBVIOUS recognition, we can pull out of this war.

Terrorists are not unified countries. There is no objective that is achievable by this military in fighting them. NONE. Oh sure, you can capture one here and there and control certain areas, but the last time I looked, we can't afford that much longer.

Let me repeat that...

WE CAN"T AFFORD TO BE THE WORLD'S POLICEMAN.

The last time I looked, a another country didn't come liberate the US from the tyranny of the King George. Citizens of countries have to WANT democracy, because as we've seen here recently, it's damn hard keeping the powers that be from snagging all the damn control that they can.

It is a ridiculous premise, and to borrow an increasingly overused phrase, a false choice to think that winning in Afghanistan is achievable. How do I know this? Because the goal is impossible.
It's not necessary for Afghanistan to form a democratic society for us to win there. It is only necessary for Afghanistan to form a society that rejects the form of islamist extremism that seeks to export it's ideology and damage US interests.

I don't know whether we can midwife that baby or not, but it's not the kind of thing that's inherently impossible as you seem to believe.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:40 PM   #167
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GTFO??? I am pretty sure I heard last October that this was the good fight and one worth winning? What has changed since last October? other than the election, of course
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Old 11-26-2009, 06:32 AM   #168
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It's not necessary for Afghanistan to form a democratic society for us to win there. It is only necessary for Afghanistan to form a society that rejects the form of islamist extremism that seeks to export it's ideology and damage US interests.

I don't know whether we can midwife that baby or not, but it's not the kind of thing that's inherently impossible as you seem to believe.
How on earth is that possible? What is the U.S. going to do specifically to sway that country's populace that has had that kind of government for CENTURIES? What makes you think that occupying that country will change the hearts of the populace? The place has no infrastructure. It's a barren wasteland.

Are you saying we should build the infrastructure only to hand it off when we leave? You're insane. I have yet to hear about any goal other than 'we need to win'. What the hell does that mean? All I hear are open-ended platitudes about security.

So you achieve what you think is 'security' in Afghanistan. Why would the terrorists stay there? There are plenty of arabic states sympathetic to their cause. They'll just move operations elsewhere. Are we suppose to rebuild every nation that they set up in? That is the underlying problem with this whole operation Bush started with invading Iraq. We are not at war with a nation but with a moving target. This is a never-ending strategy. Of course those pols whose palms are greased by the war machine will be happy to keep on duping the public by talking about 9/11 and 'ol glory.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:41 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
How on earth is that possible? What is the U.S. going to do specifically to sway that country's populace that has had that kind of government for CENTURIES? What makes you think that occupying that country will change the hearts of the populace? The place has no infrastructure. It's a barren wasteland.
The Taliban controlled large portions of the country despite those obstacles. There's no reason why a non-Taliban, western-friendly government with aid from the western powers and support of it's citizens can't do that.

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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Are you saying we should build the infrastructure only to hand it off when we leave? You're insane. I have yet to hear about any goal other than 'we need to win'. What the hell does that mean? All I hear are open-ended platitudes about security.
It's hardly a platitude to say that denying international jihadis the ability to operate freely in Afghanistan is a security benefit to us. The bigger issue is Iran though.

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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
So you achieve what you think is 'security' in Afghanistan. Why would the terrorists stay there? There are plenty of arabic states sympathetic to their cause. They'll just move operations elsewhere. Are we suppose to rebuild every nation that they set up in? That is the underlying problem with this whole operation Bush started with invading Iraq. We are not at war with a nation but with a moving target. This is a never-ending strategy. Of course those pols whose palms are greased by the war machine will be happy to keep on duping the public by talking about 9/11 and 'ol glory.
It's a long war not a never ending war. We're at war with those who embrace an ideology that is incompatible with our interests just like we were at war with international communism during the LONG cold war.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:37 AM   #170
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GTFO??? I am pretty sure I heard last October that this was the good fight and one worth winning? What has changed since last October? other than the election, of course
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Don't confuse my opinion that nation building in Afghanstan is a bad idea in fighting Al-Quaeda with my belief that we need to hunt down and kill every last Al-Quaeda SOB.
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:42 PM   #171
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Administration outlines Afghan war endgame
Official: U.S. troops will start leaving region 'well before' end of first term
NBC News and news services
updated 12:35 p.m. CT, Tues., Dec . 1, 2009


WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama plans to send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan over six months, an accelerated timetable — with an endgame built in — that would have the first Marines there as early as Christmas, a senior administration official told The Associated Press.
U.S. troops are expected to start leaving the region 'well before' the end of Obama's first term, the AP reported Tuesday. A senior government official told NBC contributor Col. Jack Jacobs that the president believes that a transition from American-led combat to Afghan leadership of the effort will begin in July 2011.

With the full complement of new troops expected to be in Afghanistan by next summer, the heightened pace of Obama's military deployment in the 8-year-old war appears to mimic the 2007 troop surge in Iraq, a 20,000-strong force addition under former President George W. Bush. Similar in strategy to that mission, Obama's Afghan surge aims to reverse gains by Taliban insurgents and to secure population centers in the volatile south and east parts of the country.

In a prime-time speech to the nation Tuesday night from West Point that ends a 92-day review, Obama will seek to help sell his much bigger, costlier war plan by tying the escalation to an exit strategy, said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

By laying out a rough timeframe and some dates for when the main U.S. military mission would end, as well as emphasizing stepped-up training for Afghan forces, the president was acknowledging the increasingly divided public opinion over continued American participation in the stalemated war.

"We want to — as quickly as possible — transition the security of the Afghan people over to those national security forces in Afghanistan," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs told ABC's "Good Morning America." "This can't be nation-building. It can't be an open-ended forever commitment."

With U.S. casualties in Afghanistan sharply increasing and little sign of progress, the war Obama once liked to call one "of necessity," not choice, has grown less popular with the public and within his own Democratic party. In recent days, leading Democrats have talked of setting tough conditions on deeper U.S. involvement, or even staging outright opposition.

The displeasure on both sides of the aisle was likely to be on display when congressional hearings on Obama's strategy get under way later in the week on Capitol Hill.

In his speech and in meetings overseas in the coming days, Obama also will ask NATO allies to contribute more — between 5,000 and 10,000 new troops — to the separate international force in Afghanistan, diplomats said.

One official from a European nation said the troop figure was included in an official NATO document compiled on the basis of information received from Washington ahead of Obama's announcement. The NATO force in Afghanistan now stands at around 40,000 troops.

The 30,000 new U.S. troops will bring the total in Afghanistan to more than 100,000 U.S. forces by next summer. New infusions of U.S. Marines will begin moving into Afghanistan almost as soon as Obama announces a redrawn battle strategy.

The president's long-awaited troop increase had been envisioned to take place over a year, or even more, because force deployments in Iraq and elsewhere make it logistically difficult, if not impossible, to go faster. But Obama directed his military planners to make the changes necessary to hasten the Afghanistan additions, said the official, who declined to be publicly identified because the formal announcement of details was still pending.

Officials were not specific on the withdrawal date that Obama has in mind nor the changes the military will be required to make to get the troop deployments into Afghanistan on the president's new, speedier timeline.

Military officials said at least one group of Marines is expected to deploy within two or three weeks of Obama's announcement, and would be in Afghanistan by Christmas. This initial infusion is a recognition by the administration that something tangible needs to happen quickly, military officials said.

The new Marines would provide badly needed reinforcements to those fighting against Taliban gains in the southern Helmand province. They also could lend reassurance to both Afghans and a war-weary U.S. public.

Obama's announcement comes near the end of a year in which the war has worsened despite the president's infusion of 21,000 forces earlier this year. He began rolling out his decision Sunday night, informing key administration officials, military advisers and foreign allies in a series of private meetings and phone calls that stretched into Monday.

Previewing a narrative the president is likely to stress, Gibbs told ABC that the number of fresh troops don't tell the whole story. Obama will emphasize that Afghan security forces need more time, more schooling and more U.S. combat backup to be up to the job on their own.

"We're going to accelerate going after al-Qaida and its extremist allies," Gibbs said. "We'll accelerate the training of an Afghan national security force, a police and an army."

In Kabul, Lt. Gen. William B. Caldwell, the new head of a U.S.-NATO command responsible for training and developing Afghan soldiers and police, said Tuesday that although the groundwork is being laid to expand the Afghan National Army beyond the current target of 134,000 troops, to be reached by Oct. 31, 2010, no fixed higher target is set.

There is a notional goal of eventually fielding 240,000 soldiers and 160,000 police, but Caldwell said that could change.

"Although that is a goal and where we think it could eventually go to, it's not a hard, firm, fixed number," he said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

He indicated that one reason for avoiding a hard-and-fast commitment to those higher numbers is the expected cost. So his orders are to reach the targets of 134,000 soldiers and 96,800 police by next October. He intends to hold annual reviews, beginning next spring or early summer, to determine whether the notional higher targets of 240,000 soldiers and 160,000 police — for a combined total of 400,000 by 2013 — are still the right goals for Afghanistan.

"If you grow it up to 400,000 — if you did grow all the way to that number, and if it was required to help bring greater security to this country — then of course you have to sustain it at that level, too, in terms of the cost of maintaining a force that size," he said. Nearly all the cost of building Afghan forces has been borne by the U.S. and other countries thus far.

Obama also will make tougher demands on the governments of Pakistan and, especially, Afghanistan.

The Afghan government said Tuesday that President Hamid Karzai and Obama had an hourlong video conference. Obama was also going to speak with Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari.

In Afghanistan, rampant government corruption and inefficiency have made U.S. success much harder. Obama was expected to place tough conditions on Karzai's government.

Obama was spending much of Monday and Tuesday on the phone, outlining his plan — minus many specifics — for the leaders of France, Britain, Germany, Russia, China, India, Denmark, Poland and others. He also met in person at the White House with Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

A briefing for dozens of key lawmakers was planned for Tuesday afternoon, just before Obama was set to leave the White House for the speech against a military backdrop.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34218604/ns/politics-white_house/
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:19 PM   #172
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Fewer troops than required according to the general tasked with defining the requirements. Check

Delayed response when time is of the essence. Check

Assurances to our enemies that we will retreat if they hold out long enough. Check

My faith in our CiC hasn't improved. I hope I'm wrong about him.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:25 PM   #173
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Fewer troops than required according to the general tasked with defining the requirements. Check
So he's just like Bush then.
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Old 12-01-2009, 03:26 PM   #174
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So he's just like Bush then.
Not even close. It's good to see that you can read my posts though. Now I know you just don't have good answers to my questions.
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Old 12-01-2009, 04:54 PM   #175
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:19 PM   #176
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It's a no win situation for us. Brave Americans are fighting a war in which there is no hope of winning. In this type of war there will never be a "winner". All we are doing is providing easy targets for Taliban to kill.

We can't just ignore military history there and say our effort will be different.

We went into Afganistan with 1,300 troops. When the Taliban fell we had 2.500 troops on the ground. We now have 60,000 troops on the ground and the Taliban control 40-70% of the country's territory.

The new commander in Afghanistan says he sees no evidence of a large Al-Quaeda presense in Afghanistan. That is and will always be the only reason for us to be in Afghanistan. The only reason we are there in the first place. The only reason to sacrifice American lives.

I think we should hunt down and kill every single member of Al=Quaeda, no matter where they are hiding.

We shouldn't be sacrificing American lives to nation build in Afghanistan. Yeah, they want to go back to the 12th century but why should we sacrifice American lives to keep that from happening? Not worth it.

But if we leave the Taliban will take over swiftly and then provide a safe -haven for Al-Quaeda? We don't let that happen. We put cruise millsle up their azz. We send out the drones. We use special forces to take them out.

Edited:

I'm convinced that this is the right decision for these reasons.
  • We can't nation build in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be using our resources and sacrificing our troops to help them. Thats not why we are there. $300 billion spent so far. 900 brave Americans dead. Entering it's 9th year. Just when will it be enough?
  • The argument that the Taliban and Al-Quaeda will just come back may be true but there are several problems with that. Al-Quaeda can be anywhere in the world. So we keep them out of Afghanistan, they show up in Pakistan, Somalia, where ever. I read there is only 100 Al-Quaeda operatives in Afghanistan. There are probably more than that in the USA. If we keep them out of Afghanistan. they will just go some other place. We need a 21st century approach. We won't be able to defeat Al-Quaeda with conventional weapons and strategy. We can always go back in with surgical strikes to take out prime targets and more large scale attacks to prevent Al-Quaeda from establishing bases again. We can't let 100,000 Americans become easy to reach targets for Al-Quaeda.
  • The government is corrupt beyond repair. For those who want to nation build, how can you with a totally corrupt government that the people don't trust? Nation building won't work no matter how many troops or how much money you throw at the problem with a corrupt government distrusted by the people.
  • Afghanistan has no resources. What exactly are they going to make money at, build their country with? It would be a transfer of wealth from us to them.
  • The population outside of Kabul is run by drug overlords. The majority of the population works in the poppy fields because its the only way they can feed their family. How are we going to change that? Provide jobs for those people to feed their families? A lot of those poppy field profits are going right to the Taliban. Just how are you going to end this cycle without a major infusion of American money. Again, a transfer of wealth.
Seems like this dude had it right back before the surge.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:35 PM   #177
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Seems like this dude had it right back before the surge.
And the last of the 33K troops are out of Afghanistan,

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...e-afghanistan/
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:44 PM   #178
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There are still 70 k troops there, and we're probably going to be there 10+ more years
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:07 PM   #179
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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There are still 70 k troops there, and we're probably going to be there 10+ more years
Not going to happen. We are not going to stick around for 10 years to help our new friends when our "friends" are shooting us in the back.
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:10 PM   #180
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Not going to happen. We are not going to stick around for 10 years to help our new friends when our "friends" are shooting us in the back.
I hope you are right, but I doubt it.....

We don't have a big habit of giving up established military bases in countries we have occupied.


I'm sure the number of troops will go down, but we WILL have men there in 10 years...guaranteed.
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