Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-22-2012, 06:14 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
The drumbeat for Hillary 2016 is picking up.

Enough so, that the current governor of New York is considering nixing his plans to run in 2016.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/ny...-way.html?_r=0

For Ambitious Governor, a Clinton Stands in the Way
By RAYMOND HERNANDEZ
Published: September 21, 2012

Since taking office last year, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo has done many things well, positioning himself for a possible presidential run.

He has challenged — and outmaneuvered — Albany’s wily Legislature. He has kept his once-notorious temper from spilling over. He has built a prodigious fund-raising operation and earned poll numbers that are the envy of governors nationwide.

But now Mr. Cuomo, a man who likes to determine his own destiny, faces a variable beyond his control: Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Creating frustration for his inner circle, as Mr. Cuomo considers a 2016 campaign for the White House, the eyes of his party are fixed on Mrs. Clinton, whose already sky-high stature among Democratic activists was enhanced by her husband’s crowd-pleasing speech this month at the party’s convention in Charlotte, N.C., and who can count on broad support if she decides to run.

Mrs. Clinton complicates Mr. Cuomo’s ambitions in several ways. Despite the fact that she hails from Illinois, she is now viewed as a New Yorker and commands deep loyalty from the state’s Democratic establishment. And Mr. Cuomo, 54, reveres her husband, former President Bill Clinton; he views Mr. Clinton as a mentor who helped him begin a career in politics, according to Cuomo friends and associates.

The focus on Mrs. Clinton among Mr. Cuomo’s advisers was apparent during the Democratic convention. At one point, a key adviser to the governor approached the Rev. Al Sharpton to ask him if he would support Mrs. Clinton were she to run in 2016, according to a prominent New York Democrat with direct knowledge of the conversation.

“They are totally trying to figure out what she would do,” said the Democrat, who like others interviewed for this article spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid alienating Mr. Cuomo.

Another Democrat close to Mr. Cuomo said the situation was making the Cuomo camp cranky, in part because the governor, a skilled strategic thinker, did not like to be captive to others’ ambitions.

And a top fund-raiser for Mr. Cuomo put it this way: “He’s got a former first lady and former New York senator in his sandbox, and that’s a mess for him. He’s got to wait and see what Hillary will do.”

Mrs. Clinton, 64, served as a senator for eight years before resigning to become President Obama’s secretary of state.

Neither she nor Mr. Cuomo has signaled any plans for the 2016 election, and the governor says he is focused on his current job. (Mrs. Clinton is not expected to stay in her cabinet post if Mr. Obama wins a second term.) But the potential collision between them is gripping the political world in New York.

“In terms of the psychodrama of politics, it does not get any better than this,” the Democrat close to Mr. Cuomo said.

While Mr. Cuomo has deep affection for Mr. Clinton and calls him for advice, his relationship with Mrs. Clinton is less personal.

What is most vexing to those who want to see Mr. Cuomo run is that Mrs. Clinton, given her popularity in the party, can take her time deciding whether to make another bid for the presidency, essentially freezing the rest of the Democratic field.

Mr. Cuomo, in private conversations, has often been frank about his own prospective presidential candidacy. “First, I’ve got to figure out what Hillary is doing,” he says, according to an adviser.

A Cuomo spokesman denied that Mr. Cuomo had said any such thing and insisted that the governor was not positioning himself for a presidential run.

In the weeks leading up to the convention, Mr. Cuomo, who served as the nation’s housing secretary under President Clinton, turned down offers from old associates of his father, former Gov. Mario M. Cuomo, and former colleagues from the federal housing department to talk quietly about his presidential prospects, as other prominent Democrats, like Gov. Martin O’Malley of Maryland, began planting the seeds for possible candidacies, according to a close Cuomo adviser.

Among those yearning for a Cuomo presidential campaign in 2016, a divide has emerged: some suggest that if Mrs. Clinton ran, the governor’s loyalty to Mr. Clinton would prevent him from joining the field.

But others reject the notion that Mrs. Clinton poses a serious obstacle to Mr. Cuomo, saying she is enjoying a political honeymoon right now but still has many of the weaknesses that plagued her in the past, including a polarizing image.

By contrast, they say, Mr. Cuomo is a fresh face whom Democratic officials, donors and activists will naturally want to court — provided that he wins re-election in 2014, when Mrs. Clinton will most likely be out of a job in politics.
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:04 AM   #61
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Ah, so you're just saying stuff because saying stuff is fun.
I'm just emulating you sweetheart.
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:06 AM   #62
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I'm just emulating you sweetheart.
I'm typically serious about the predictions I put out there.

Just a difference between us, I suppose.
__________________
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:23 AM   #63
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm typically serious about the predictions I put out there.

Just a difference between us, I suppose.
You predicted the unemployment rate will drop to 6% by 2014 and an Obama approval rating of upper 50's (what exactly is that, 56 or 59?) by the end of his 8 year term.

I don't see it happening and if you and Obama are wrong, which history is on my side here, I stated Obama's approval rating will be equal or worse than Bush's.

Not really sure where your seriousness is any more serious than my seriousness.
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:24 AM   #64
blaise blaise is offline
Gonzo = Sexy Bitch
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Plano, TX
Casino cash: $45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You predicted the unemployment rate will drop to 6% by 2014 and an Obama approval rating of upper 50's (what exactly is that, 56 or 59?) by the end of his 8 year term.

I don't see it happening and if you and Obama are wrong, which history is on my side here, I stated Obama's approval rating will be equal or worse than Bush's.

Not really sure where your seriousness is any more serious than my seriousness.
It'll drop to 6% once you factor in excuses.
Posts: 21,019
blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.blaise is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:40 AM   #65
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You predicted the unemployment rate will drop to 6% by 2014 and an Obama approval rating of upper 50's (what exactly is that, 56 or 59?) by the end of his 8 year term.
Partially right.

I've predicted the unemployment should drop pretty hard in 2014 regardless of who's in office. I would say into the 6%, maybe low 6%.

I predicated my Obama approval rating guess on that. So you're right, there, but only partially so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I don't see it happening and if you and Obama are wrong, which history is on my side here, I stated Obama's approval rating will be equal or worse than Bush's.
Because you're claiming that not only will Obama's approval stall, it will sink like a goddamn rock to the mid 20's.

I simply don't see the reasoning for that, barring some crazy attack on US soil or unemployment skyrocketing back up.

And you don't either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Not really sure where your seriousness is any more serious than my seriousness.
Because you pussed out when something was actually put on the line to hold you accountable. You admitted yourself that you were just posting like a crazed homer more than you were grounded in reality.

That's the difference between us.
__________________
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:42 AM   #66
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
Besides, big day tomorrow
 
Iowanian's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Utopia
Casino cash: $13700
It might as well be beating....she's talking to world leaders at the UN while Obama panders at "the view".
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC native View Post
I said I'm an expert dickrider.
Posts: 50,840
Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.Iowanian is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:48 AM   #67
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
It looks like President Hillary will inherit a 5% unemployment rate:

__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 10:02 AM   #68
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Partially right.

I've predicted the unemployment should drop pretty hard in 2014 regardless of who's in office. I would say into the 6%, maybe low 6%.

I predicated my Obama approval rating guess on that. So you're right, there, but only partially so.



Because you're claiming that not only will Obama's approval stall, it will sink like a goddamn rock to the mid 20's.

I simply don't see the reasoning for that, barring some crazy attack on US soil or unemployment skyrocketing back up.

And you don't either.



Because you pussed out when something was actually put on the line to hold you accountable. You admitted yourself that you were just posting like a crazed homer more than you were grounded in reality.

That's the difference between us.
Check your chart and what I posted again. Bush ended up somewhere in the 30's.

I see no Obama policy that would expect unemployment to drop to 6%. I see no Obama policy that addresses out of control entitlement spending. I see no Obama policy that seriously attacks the deficit. I see no Obama leadership steering us away from the approaching cliff. All I see are Obama policies that are intended to make people more dependent on the government.

So yeah, I can play your game too. If what I foresee happens he will end up with Bush level approval ratings.

And from what I read into your post, any president will get unemployment down into the 6% range by 2014. I'm glad we can agree now that if Obama is re-elected and that happens it isn't because of anything he did.

I also noticed that you backed down from the prediction of an Obama 60+% approval rating to somewhere in the "upper 50's".

Yeah, you're not a crazed homer or accountable for what you post or anything.
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 10:07 AM   #69
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It looks like President Hillary will inherit a 5% unemployment rate:

Hell, even Romney will move in day one with a low 5% rate!
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 10:12 AM   #70
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I see no Obama policy that would expect unemployment to drop to 6%. I see no Obama policy that addresses out of control entitlement spending. I see no Obama policy that seriously attacks the deficit. I see no Obama leadership steering us away from the approaching cliff. All I see are Obama policies that are intended to make people more dependent on the government.
I believe the unemployment rate will drop to 6%ish regardless of who's in office due to the dynamics of the unemployment rate, and what I believe is keeping it propped up. I believe it is unemployment that is keeping Obama around 50% approval, so much so that once it actually does fall, Obama will score really good approval ratings, I would argue in the high 50s at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
So yeah, I can play your game too. If what I foresee happens he will end up with Bush level approval ratings.
What do you foresee happening, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
And from what I read into your post, any president will get unemployment down into the 6% range by 2014. I'm glad we can agree now that if Obama is re-elected and that happens it isn't because of anything he did.
Swing and a miss.

I think unemployment will drop hard in 2014 no matter who is President, in part because of accomplishments of Obama's first term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I also noticed that you backed down from the prediction of an Obama 60+% approval rating to somewhere in the "upper 50's".
Oh I still believe in the low-60s, high-50s, so long as unemployment falls into the mid- to low-6's, which I think it's going to in 2014.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Yeah, you're not a crazed homer or accountable for what you post or anything.
I'm happy to make a bet on that. Interested? We can hash out terms right now.
__________________
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 11:23 AM   #71
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I believe the unemployment rate will drop to 6%ish regardless of who's in office due to the dynamics of the unemployment rate, and what I believe is keeping it propped up. I believe it is unemployment that is keeping Obama around 50% approval, so much so that once it actually does fall, Obama will score really good approval ratings, I would argue in the high 50s at least.



What do you foresee happening, exactly?



Swing and a miss.

I think unemployment will drop hard in 2014 no matter who is President, in part because of accomplishments of Obama's first term.



Oh I still believe in the low-60s, high-50s, so long as unemployment falls into the mid- to low-6's, which I think it's going to in 2014.



I'm happy to make a bet on that. Interested? We can hash out terms right now.
My prediction is global conditions and the global economy will keep unemployment around 8% thru another 4 years of Obama. Even though that number is totally reflective of the state of our economy since it doesn't figure in the actual unemployed/underemployed.

I'd predict a lower rate if Romney were elected. Uncertainty would be replaced with a bigger desire to invest in jobs.

I don't see the need for a bet since neither of us will agree to terms.
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 11:27 AM   #72
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I don't see the need for a bet since neither of us will agree to terms.
I don't see why not. You've made very specific predictions.

How about this: if unemployment is 8%-anything or worse by December 31st 2014, you get my signature for life. If it is 6%-anything or better by December 31st 2014, I get yours for life. If it is 7%-anything, we get each other's signatures for a year.

If that sounds good, we can put some icing in the cake with Obama's approval numbers.
__________________
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 11:30 AM   #73
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
Supporter
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Spink, SD
Casino cash: $9589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't see why not. You've made very specific predictions.

How about this: if unemployment is 8%-anything or worse by December 31st 2014, you get my signature for life. If it is 6%-anything or better by December 31st 2014, I get yours for life. If it is 7%-anything, we get each other's signatures for a year.

If that sounds good, we can put some icing in the cake with Obama's approval numbers.
You realize since I'm a nice guy I'll tell you right now with those conditions I can already claim victory.
Posts: 25,358
mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.mlyonsd is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 11:33 AM   #74
J Diddy J Diddy is offline
One Groovy Cat
 
J Diddy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The Pitt State baby
Casino cash: $13512
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You realize since I'm a nice guy I'll tell you right now with those conditions I can already claim victory.
What's the over under on you guys forgetting about it by then?
Posts: 30,554
J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 11:36 AM   #75
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $22351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You realize since I'm a nice guy I'll tell you right now with those conditions I can already claim victory.
So you're in? You want to do this thing?
__________________
Posts: 46,716
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:09 AM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.