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Old 09-27-2012, 08:22 AM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Why I'm Struggling with the Idea of Voting for Romney

I'll say it -- I like him personally and I like him politically. I think he's smart and can be an effective leader. There are things I like about Obama, but things I dislike. As our deficit/debt balloons, I put increasing importance in reining it in.

But when the test comes, Republicans CONSISTENTLY ignore the deficit and instead focus their attention on social issues -- which are diametrically opposed to my positions on such issues.

This article well summarizes why I find it hard to vote for Romney. I'm still undecided, FWIW.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/26/opinio...html?hpt=hp_t2
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:09 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
You can argue Obama's "flip flops" on things like Guantanamo Bay, but I'd suggest it's more idealism colliding with reality once additional facts are discovered.

Romney has taken 180 degree turns for simple political expediencies sake. MULTIPLE times. Going from pro choice to anti abortion, going from RomneyCare to bucking ObamaCare to waffling on ObamaCare, the list is pretty endless. Seriously, there's no comparison.
This isn't really true. Romney went from pro-choice to anti-abortion when he was still a Massachusetts politician and that can't be politically expedient. Romney's position on Obamacare hasn't changed from "bucking" to "waffling". He's been opposed to Obamacare but in favor of some of the reforms in Obamacare all along.

On the other hand, you can't tell me that closing Gitmo (and the headaches that would have created) or holding high profile terror trials in the heart of NYC would have ended up being popular for Obama.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:39 AM   #17
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Republicans rarely do anything but give lip service to social issues. I don't know how that can be a serious concern for you in a POTUS election. Let's look at a few of them:

1. Abortion - The only impact Romney would have on abortion is that he might get the chance to appoint a SCOTUS Justice or two who might tip the balance of the court and lead to a reversal of Roe v Wade. You have to be pretty pro-abortion to be concerned about letting the issue of abortion being returned to the states. There's not a chance that Massachusetts is going to ban abortions and it's pretty unlikely that more than a handful of states would ban them completely (although several would probably impose restrictions like parental notification or limits on how late in the term an abortion can take place).

2. Gays in the military - Romney could re-impose DADT, but I seriously doubt that he'd do it. By all accounts, repeal of DADT hasn't led to any significant problems.

3. Gay marriage - Romney will have no impact on this. We are not going to have a federal amendment banning it.

4. Marijuana - Obama hasn't been much of a states' rights advocate on this issue. Romney won't be any worse and conceivably could be better (but I doubt it).

5. General - Romney might cut government funding for things like abortions in the third world and fetal stem cell research, but given the need to trim/slash the budget anyway, shouldn't these things be among the first to go anyway?

I'm not on board with most of the social conservatism of the GOP, but that's never a consideration for me because the degree to which they do anything along these lines, it's pretty inconsequential anyway.

Your more legitimate concern is that the GOP won't really address the deficit as aggressively as they should. But given that taking a gamble on Romney is a far better bet than jumping back in bed with the Deficit-Exploder-in-Chief, I don't see why this fear should stand in your way.
1. Pro-abortion and pro-choice are two separate things. Despite the quick lip service you gave to it, it is a big issue. Not something that you make sound like is highly unlikely.

2. He could but he might not.--Great argument

3. Despite whether or not it happens is not the point. He supports a ban on gay marriage--that's his position. You vote for people on where their position is not on probability of outcome to spite that position.

4. I would agree with you there.

5. Stem cell research is a big thing. It needs to be advanced not cut.

I love how you say that his more legitimate concern is the deficit. Like you have any kind of authority on the matter to tell him what his concerns are.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:51 AM   #18
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Definitely not the one who is insisting on more give aways to the top earners.
Who told you that? Obama?
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:53 AM   #19
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
1. Pro-abortion and pro-choice are two separate things. Despite the quick lip service you gave to it, it is a big issue. Not something that you make sound like is highly unlikely.
I used "pro-abortion" intentionally. A person from Massachusetts would have to be more than just pro-choice to worry about the impact of a Roe v Wade reversal. They'd have to be a crusading pro-abortionist.

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2. He could but he might not.--Great argument
As CiC, he has more power to make a change like this than on an issue like abortion, but I doubt that he'd do it. --Great reading comprehension.

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3. Despite whether or not it happens is not the point. He supports a ban on gay marriage--that's his position. You vote for people on where their position is not on probability of outcome to spite that position.
That was Obama's position in 2008 (speaking of flip flops). You might vote based on obviously empty rhetoric, but I vote on probability of outcome. You can be tediously thoughtless sometimes.

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4. I would agree with you there.
You win me back just a little at moments like this.

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5. Stem cell research is a big thing. It needs to be advanced not cut.
Stem cell research isn't in any jeopardy, just federal funding for it. It's certainly not a big thing compared to our economy or the government's out-of-control fiscal house. You're welcome to your own opinion on this, but I'm confident that a deficit-hawk like Amnorix would agree with me on this point.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:08 AM   #20
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Who told you that? Obama?
No, that comes from the few details that Mittens has released on his tax policy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:23 AM   #21
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I hope Romney wins mostly because of the comedic effect it will have on the board.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:25 AM   #22
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I hope Romney wins mostly because of the comedic effect it will have on the board.
Like what?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:27 AM   #23
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If you think Romney is going to be better for the economy, I don't think you should allow your concerns about social conservatism to get in the way. Romney is not quite a social conservative. He's what was formerly called a Rockefeller Republican. If you think the economy will get better under Romney than Obama, you should vote for Romney. That's just my opinion.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:32 AM   #24
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Like what?
I think it will be best if you wait and see. Surprises are wonderful.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #25
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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If you think Romney is going to be better for the economy, I don't think you should allow your concerns about social conservatism to get in the way. Romney is not quite a social conservative. He's what was formerly called a Rockefeller Republican. If you think the economy will get better under Romney than Obama, you should vote for Romney. That's just my opinion.

That is quite likely what I would do IF I was more certain that Romney would be better for the economy.

Just to be clear, I think there is a VERY high percentage that the economy recovers in the '13'16 timeframe no matter who we elect. Sure, there's plenty that could screw that up -- Europe's woes worsening or, JFC, a dirty bomb in NYC -- but just based on things that are mostly under our control, the economy should improve.

How much more under one versus the other becomes the real question. Is deregulation really a great idea given how badly the banks screwed up so recently? Are the Republicans going to once again "charge" economic growth on the nation's credit card, ignoring the deficit, as they have done in the past?

Frankly, I don't love or hate either candidate, really, so it's a pretty close call for me. Lots of plusses and minuses for both in my book.

Most here view one or the other as the Anti-Christ, but I don't. Claims that Obama is some kind of Anti-American Islamic Socialist are just lunacy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:35 AM   #26
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I think it will be best if you wait and see. Surprises are wonderful.
Do you also tend to think blaise is talking about all the awkward moments of President Romney attempting to relate to the American working class?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:40 AM   #27
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That is quite likely what I would do IF I was more certain that Romney would be better for the economy.

Just to be clear, I think there is a VERY high percentage that the economy recovers in the '13'16 timeframe no matter who we elect. Sure, there's plenty that could screw that up -- Europe's woes worsening or, JFC, a dirty bomb in NYC -- but just based on things that are mostly under our control, the economy should improve.

How much more under one versus the other becomes the real question. Is deregulation really a great idea given how badly the banks screwed up so recently? Are the Republicans going to once again "charge" economic growth on the nation's credit card, ignoring the deficit, as they have done in the past?

Frankly, I don't love or hate either candidate, really, so it's a pretty close call for me. Lots of plusses and minuses for both in my book.

Most here view one or the other as the Anti-Christ, but I don't. Claims that Obama is some kind of Anti-American Islamic Socialist are just lunacy.
I'm completely in agreement with you, by the way. I think both candidates are good candidates, and the U.S. economy will continue to improve under either, for the short term. I do tend to think that more regulation is vitally necessary for our economy's long-term stability, that austerity is unnecessary at this moment, and that stimulus remains helpful at this point in a small dosages.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:45 AM   #28
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I think it will be best if you wait and see. Surprises are wonderful.
You said the same thing in 2008. You are good with predictions.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:45 AM   #29
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Do you also tend to think blaise is talking about all the awkward moments of President Romney attempting to relate to the American working class?
No
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:46 AM   #30
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Oh and Amnorix I wouldn't try to struggle to much Romney is going to lose your state (his home state) by 20-30%.

The more important issue is who are you going to vote for in the Senate, Brown or Warren?
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