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Old 05-31-2006, 09:29 AM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Lance Armstrong cleared of doping charges (and now drops the fight)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?cnn=yes

The French Lose Again.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Independent Dutch investigators cleared Lance Armstrong of doping in the 1999 Tour de France on Wednesday, and blamed anti-doping authorities for misconduct in dealing with the American cyclist.

A 132-page report recommended convening a tribunal to discuss possible legal and ethical violations by the World Anti-Doping Agency and to consider "appropriate sanctions to remedy the violations."

The French sports daily L'Equipe reported in August that six of Armstrong's urine samples from 1999, when he won the first of his record seven-straight Tour titles, came back positive for the endurance-boosting hormone EPO when they were retested in 2004.

Armstrong has repeatedly denied using banned substances.

The International Cycling Union appointed Dutch lawyer Emile Vrijman last October to investigate the handling of urine tests from the 1999 Tour by the French national anti-doping laboratory, known by its French acronym LNDD.

Vrijman said Wednesday his report "exonerates Lance Armstrong completely with respect to alleged use of doping in the 1999 Tour de France."

The report also said the UCI had not damaged Armstrong by releasing doping control forms to the French newspaper.

The report said WADA and the LNDD may have "behaved in ways that are completely inconsistent with the rules and regulations of international anti-doping control testing," and may also have been against the law.

Vrijman, who headed the Dutch anti-doping agency for 10 years and later defended athletes accused of doping, worked on the report with Adriaan van der Veen, a scientist with the Dutch Metrology Laboratory.

EPO, or erythropoietin, is a synthetic hormone that boosts the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood.

Testing for EPO only began in 2001.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:47 PM   #151
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This is sad. Is it not possible any more for any athletes to compete fairly?
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:53 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Rain Man View Post
This is sad. Is it not possible any more for any athletes to compete fairly?
I watched the 30 for 30 last night on the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100m race and it appeared that the true competition wasn't between the athletes but rather each countries drug program.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:04 PM   #153
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Very well put. I agree.
I don't believe Hincapie ever tested positive. And yet you have his statement today. Is there anyone left saying he didn't cheat, other than his lawyers?
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:06 PM   #154
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I watched the 30 for 30 last night on the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100m race and it appeared that the true competition wasn't between the athletes but rather each countries drug program.
That's the last 20 years of professional cycling as well, in a nutshell. Except it was about whose drug program could avoid detection.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:07 PM   #155
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I'd give a shit about his doping if he was in a minority of riders who doped. Take away his victories, fine. Who are you going to give them to? The other top riders that weren't as good as him but doped just as much?
Exactly. Everyone in professional cycling dopes to some degree or another. Anyone who knows anything about cycling is aware of this. It's not even a well kept secret, dirty little secret, or any kind of secret. It's just a known part of the sport.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:07 PM   #156
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If they had a positive test to put forth here, I'd be inclined to give this more credence. Armstrong is probably one of, if not the most drug tested athlete of all time. They caught Landis, they caught Hamilton, they caught Contador, they catch people every year. I can accept that his cancer treatments might have provided some advantage early on, but seriously. This case seems flimsy at best and usually based on the testimony of someone who is hocking a book or has some interest like Jose CanLandis.

Maybe he did, but for how many cyclists are routinely caught doping there is a stunning lack of evidence IMO
The evidence is coming that will show the UCI (Governing Body of Pro Cycling), hid positive results from Lance Armstrong.

It was fixed. You could test him a BILLION times and he woulda came up Negative with the UCI covering your back!

He is so ****ed!
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:03 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by jd1020 View Post
I'd give a shit about his doping if he was in a minority of riders who doped. Take away his victories, fine. Who are you going to give them to? The other top riders that weren't as good as him but doped just as much?
Not sure if anyone is getting those titles, most of the riders who finished behind him are now known to have cheated. If the sport was clean, he probably would have been one of the greatest cyclists in the world. Maybe not 7 titles, the US team had a better doping program than the competition, but everyone was cheating so it was kinda sorta a level playing field.

The titles still have to be stripped obviously, but Armstrong is mostly being condemned and criticized for defiantly continuing his lie to the grave. He would have been forgiven long ago had he just explained that they really had no choice, they could either cheat or finish well behind all the other cheaters.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:07 PM   #158
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No positive test results? Sounds like all they have is a bunch of sour grapes from those who couldn't be Lance so they want to teal Lance down.
Why do they continue to pursue this? What can you do to him now? Strip his victories? No you can't, he already won. BFD. Move on, spend all that $ where it will do some good.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:35 PM   #159
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No positive test results? Sounds like all they have is a bunch of sour grapes from those who couldn't be Lance so they want to teal Lance down.
Why do they continue to pursue this? What can you do to him now? Strip his victories? No you can't, he already won. BFD. Move on, spend all that $ where it will do some good.
First of all, yes, they did have positive results. Its kind of hard to be caught when the UCI is completely, utterly in the tank to protecting you. A big chunk of the report was actually dedicated to strong criticism of the UCI.

Second, the new names we learned today that we didn't know about before are not random cycling nobody's that can be hand-waved away. George Hincapie was probably Armstrong's best friend in cycling and the only rider who ever raced on his team for all 7 titles. He's never spoken before and Armstrong has never spoken of him in anything but glowing terms. Also like Armstrong, Hincapie was never caught, he successfully cheated his entire career and - "officially" - passed every test. Yet now he's willing to admit everything.

Thats kind of a big deal in today's report, Lance cant just say THIS guy is also lying and expect us to believe it.

edit: not sure if its behind a paywall, but this is a pretty good article on Hincapie.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
First of all, yes, they did have positive results. Its kind of hard to be caught when the UCI is completely, utterly in the tank to protecting you. A big chunk of the report was actually dedicated to strong criticism of the UCI.

Second, the new names we learned today that we didn't know about before are not random cycling nobody's that can be hand-waved away. George Hincapie was probably Armstrong's best friend in cycling and the only rider who ever raced on his team for all 7 titles. He's never spoken before and Armstrong has never spoken of him in anything but glowing terms. Also like Armstrong, Hincapie was never caught, he successfully cheated his entire career and passed every test. Yet now he's willing to admit everything.

Thats kind of a big deal in today's report, Lance cant just say THIS guy is also lying and expect us to believe it.
My mistake. Where were the positive results published and why wasn't he suspended or penalized at the time the positive results came in?

Other than a verifiable positive test result there is only hearsay, no matter who is doing the saying.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:45 PM   #161
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My mistake. Where were the positive results published and why wasn't he suspended or penalized at the time the positive results came in?

Other than a verifiable positive test result there is only hearsay, no matter who is doing the saying.
There are blood samples from 2009 and 2010. He decided not to fight them. It's like charging "no contest" to a crime. "I'm going to say I didn't do it, but you have overwhelming proof, so **** it - here's my public relations team."
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:47 PM   #162
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For those defending him, there is going to be a big dump of information in a few hours. It might be best just to sit back and wait.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:48 PM   #163
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My mistake. Where were the positive results published and why wasn't he suspended or penalized at the time the positive results came in?

Other than a verifiable positive test result there is only hearsay, no matter who is doing the saying.
The french test (alluded to in the OP) absolutely nailed Armstrong beyond any doubt whatsoever. He got off that on a technicality. A couple of the other tests are mentioned in the report.

Aside from that, you almost don't need the testimony to know Armstrong cheated unless you are emotionally invested into Armstrong hero-worship. The most damning evidence is the Alpe d'Huez. During the Armstrong cheater era, the best cyclists turned in times climbing that mountain that are now thought of to be physically impossible for a human. As soon as testing improved and taking EPO became harder and the sport was mostly cleaned up, race times up that mountain ballooned enormously. Aside from that, we KNOW that all his major competitors cheated. We know this. it is simply not reasonable, at all, to believe that Armstrong could have beaten an entire competition full of cheaters, clean.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:54 PM   #164
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Other than a verifiable positive test result there is only hearsay, no matter who is doing the saying.
Oh, also I don't think you know what hearsay means. This is not hearsay, it is testimony from literally dozens of direct eyewitnesses. Hearsay is when you heard someone describe what someone else did. If you didn't see it, we generally don't accept it. This is like having over 24 people say they saw you shoot someone, and you coming back with "they are all lying!"

People are executed in this country from eyewitness testimony, much less have race results invalidated.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:09 PM   #165
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Oh, also I don't think you know what hearsay means. This is not hearsay, it is testimony from literally dozens of direct eyewitnesses. Hearsay is when you heard someone describe what someone else did. If you didn't see it, we generally don't accept it. This is like having over 24 people say they saw you shoot someone, and you coming back with "they are all lying!"

People are executed in this country from eyewitness testimony, much less have race results invalidated.
I was getting ready to post this too. Well said.
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