***OFFICIAL VP DEBATE THREAD***

[BigRedChief]

A little early but I was just sitting in the park this afternoon when a small group of runner's came by me and it was Ryan running along the waters edge. They were running a pretty damn good clip. A quick pace for a jog that's for sure.

WTF is he doing his debate prep in St. Pete?

On Saturday night Romney held a big rally about 1/2 mile from my house and right across from where Ryan was running.

[RINGLEADER]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

BTW. that is by far Biden's best bet on foreign policy. Americans are tired of the Middle East and see it as hopeless. .

They'll reconsider this position when the spigot gets turned off to that sweet sweet oil...

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

Well, he can do that, but after 4-5 times of Ryan explaining that the budget is a starting point that is usually negotiated, but that the Democrats in the senate never produced a budget and Obama's budget couldn't even get a single Democrat vote (insert bi-partisan dig here) and that it isn't the plan we're running on you start to sound obtuse.

I think the left is missing the point that the reason Romney's had a surge of sorts is because he isn't the monster they made him out to be. Calling him a liar for being moderate sounding isn't going to work with most people. I realize it's all they got, but as long as Romney is an acceptable alternative Obama has real problems IMO.

Well I think we can both agree Romney is a sly one. He's definitively changed positions on a wide array of issues, and if the Republicans can be effective selling John Kerry as a poll-hoarding waffler, there's no reason that can't work on Romney.

And, if he tries to dodge his own budget, Ryan.

[RINGLEADER]

Where's the thread-starter? Isn't there some kind of requirement if you're going to start a thread that you have to sit around and wait with the rest of us?

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

I think this is the Ringleader-Direckshun-Austin show...

Hell, I'd watch that.

[RINGLEADER]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Well I think we can both agree Romney is a sly one. He's definitively changed positions on a wide array of issues, and if the Republicans can be effective selling John Kerry as a poll-hoarding waffler, there's no reason that can't work on Romney.

And, if he tries to dodge his own budget, Ryan.

Well the budget line opens up Biden to questions about Obama's budget too. The one that not even a single Democrat would vote for...

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

1. So? It's not his plan now. I'm not sure why the left doesn't understand the plan, but I'm not going to convince anyone so I'll save the keystrokes...

So you're saying Romney voted for it before he voted against it.

[flashback to 2004...]

[RINGLEADER]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Hell, I'd watch that.

You're living it, buddy

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

Well the budget line opens up Biden to questions about Obama's budget too. The one that not even a single Democrat would vote for...

Fair point.

I still do it if I'm Biden, though. Obama's plan, as unpopular as it was with today's Congress, is far from the extreme document that Ryan's is/was.

[RINGLEADER]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

So you're saying Romney voted for it before he voted against it.

[flashback to 2004...]

No. He supported the Ryan budget. That doesn't mean he can't have his own and that it can't be different...a little different from saying "I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it..."

[RINGLEADER]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Fair point.

I still do it if I'm Biden, though. Obama's plan, as unpopular as it was with today's Congress, is far from the extreme document that Ryan's is/was.

I think this debate is all about trying to get a wedge between Romney and Ryan for Obama to exploit next week, so I think you're right.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

All reports are that Ryan is a good debater. I would expect him to perform well tonight, I'm actually excited to see him in action because we don't get a lot of dudes like him at the bottom of tickets. Usually it's just some "let's excite the base" 'tard.

I just don't see how he can wiggle away from his budget. It's an incredibly well constructed, severely conservative document that vaulted his standing in the GOP. He didn't get to where he is by being good looking -- though he has that going for him as well.

I agree this will be fun to watch. I have always told people that Biden is a top notch debater BUT I am worried that he has been in such a bubble for the last 4 years that he may not perform as well as in the past. We'll see though.

Regarding Ryan's budget. It will come down to framing. If Biden frames it as a shining example of just how right Ryan and Romney are and can defend that position, he scores points. I just can't imagine Ryan wouldn't defuse that easily. If I were him, I'd have my "zingers" ready for just that eventuality.

1)point out that Biden may want to check his calendar because he's reading a document that is x days old and no longer valid
2)make a funny but seemingly harmless, we're buddies, I'm just bustin your chops type of remark about his statement being a gaffe
3)explain what I currently have as my budget etc
4)make another reference to Biden "catching" up to current state of affairs

Then when Biden tries to say, "well you ONCE believed that.. that's important"

5)point out how he and Obama have evolved on certain issues (quote an embarrassing example or two) and why is he(Ryan) not allowed the same latitude

That pretty much kills the issue dead.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

No. He supported the Ryan budget. That doesn't mean he can't have his own and that it can't be different...a little different from saying "I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it..."

Oh hell, it's even better if he still supports it.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by RINGLEADER

I think this debate is all about trying to get a wedge between Romney and Ryan for Obama to exploit next week, so I think you're right.

Interesting........ hadn't considered that angle.

Like running interference in NASCAR, I guess.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

That said, if I'm Biden (and for all you guys know, I am -- you've never seen me in the same room as him...), I keep singing the praises of the original Ryan budget. Because that thing is a nightmare for a Presidential campaign to sell in the United States.

Even if Ryan backs off parts of it, and says something like "I've since revised the parts on Medicare to not include today's seniors" I'd rebut that he still included it in the original thinking at one point that it was wise policy, and that that is indicative of where his priorities lie, which suggests dire consequences for future policy. (If Ryan attempts to escape by saying his views are not necessarily Romney's views, I'd remind him that god forbid, should something happen to Romney, you're the guy we're stuck with. That's why we have veeps, that's why we're on this stage. Otherwise nobody cares about us.)

Before Romney embraced the Moderate Mitt persona, he endorsed the Ryan budget at one point, and selected the guy to be his goddamn Veep. Marry him to it.

So you think Joe Biden should use the "you're married to every statement you've ever made" approach? No way that could backfire since Biden doesn't have a history of saying things he regrets.

[RINGLEADER]

This will be fun to watch -- I think the last VP debate that had any impact one way or the other was the trainwreck of a debate that Jack Kemp gave in 1996...

Funny anecdote...one of the policy briefers that helped Kemp prep for that debate...

Paul Ryan