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Old 08-31-2012, 06:24 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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Why people laugh at Creationists

Taking a lead from Killer Clown I thought I'd create a alternative thread to post some videos I like...

[EDIT New video here]

So on with the show:

Here's the Kent Hovind Theory:



"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

Last edited by Dave Lane; 01-08-2013 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
first things first..do you believe the Bible to be literally true?
Fair enough, I'll answer your question.

No, I absolutely do not believe the Bible to be literally true. I don't believe that Eve was created from Adam's rib, I don't believe that Cain had children with a woman who could be nothing other than his sister, I don't believe that God transformed Lot's wife into a pillar of salt to punish her for turning around and taking a peak at the city they were fleeing from, and I don't believe that Noah built an ark and put two of every dinosaur, ape, elephant, lion, rhinoceros, rattlesnake, penguin, polar bear, and every other animal of the face of the earth on it. I also don't believe that God created the earth 6,000 years ago and then put fossils into rocks and rigged all of the carbon dating technologies just to mess with us and say "Ha, ha, fooled you!".

Thinking of the Bible as a book of fables rather than thinking of it as the literally true word of God allows me to have the freedom to believe in a God who created the Universe and everything in it, while at the same time believing in a God who would NEVER EVER EVER order people to do some of the evil and heinous things that were done in His name in the Old Testament.

I believe that the Bible was written by men, not God. And while these men probably had very good intentions, they were a product of their times, and their writings reflect what they knew. They didn't understand the inherent evil and immorality of genocide and mass rape. Just because the men who wrote the book men insisted that the Bible is the true, literal, and divinely-inspired word of God, that doesn't mean I have to believe what those men said. Even if they insist that I'll be tortured forever in the non-consuming flames of hell if I dare to think for myself and draw my own conclusions, I still don't have to believe what those men say. If I were to hear God say it directly to me, that would be different.

Now, how about if you answer my second question?

By the way, kudos to you for engaging in a dialogue. The best response Killer Clown came up with was to tell me to take it up with God if I have a problem with Him ordering people to rape and murder.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:05 AM   #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Literature View Post
What a complete display of historical ignorance. The reason there was a dark ages was because of the fall of the Roman Empire. Can you guess what organization stepped in to fill those enormous shoes of providing for education and social stability? You're about 200 years behind the historical consensus on the Middle Ages. To put this into a perspective you might understand, imagine that 100 years after Copernicus and Galileo, some scientist rushes into his university and announces, "The earth is the center of the universe! I have the proof from the Book of Genesis!" They would look at him and think, "Now here's a guy who doesn't know what's going on around him."

That's you right now.
Blame the Barbarians?

"Real-life barbarians (were) eager to settle down and savor the fruits of civilization: to defeat the enemy, tax him, visit his doctors, marry his daughters."

R. Wright (Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny)


The Christians have always lied and one of their biggest lies remains that of "blaming the barbarians" for the destruction of ancient civilization which they themselves caused.

The melodrama is familiar enough: barbarians "pouring in" ... Rome sacked ... havoc wreaked everywhere. Words like "horde" and "onslaught" are bandied about, conjuring up images of a human flood of bloodthirsty and predatory warriors, hell-bent on rape and pillage. The only light, we are asked to believe, comes from the flickering lamps of Christian monks in remote fastnesses, keeping alive the dim flame of civilization until a bright new dawn, centuries into the future.

To put things in perspective, in 410, the Visigoths of Alaric (a Christian) pillaged Rome for precisely three days before withdrawing. A generation later, in 455, Gaiseric (a Christian) and his Vandals spent just fourteen days in the city, taking what they could.

The conventional 'wisdom' is a travesty, written by the winning side. The barbarians of the 3rd 5th centuries AD like the barbarians of the 1st century AD or 2nd century BC had wanted a share of the good life, not the common ruination of everyone.

What was different in the age of Constantine and Theodosius, compared to the age of Augustus and Hadrian, was the degenerate nature of the Roman state which opposed them.

The barbarians, in the passage of centuries, had learnt from the empire: the practical skills of agriculture and horticulture; the value of armour; the exercise of power within a framework of law; even a version the new Christian religion of the Romans.

But the empire, for its part, had turned in on itself, had wasted its energies on the indulgences of a theocratic tyranny, had narrowed its vision, had ruined itself a process that began with Constantine and his plans for a Christian dynasty. The One True Catholic and Orthodox Faith, made secure by its establishment as the state religion, expropriated for its own purposes more and more of the wealth of the empire. Yet ultimately it became indifferent to the fate of the empire; Holy Mother Church was all that mattered.
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:08 AM   #618
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Young Lions – or Effete Fools?
13 Christian Emperors who ruined the world

Age at Accession and Death ARIAN


House of Constantine – Scramble for Power

Constantine I (307 - 337) – 34 (west) 52 (whole empire). With less than five per cent of his subjects professing to be Christian, Constantine endorsed Christianity as the most favoured religion. Though his Council of Nicaea was ever after hailed as the lodestone of Catholic orthodoxy, he died an Arian (at 65).

Constantine II (337 - 340) – 21. On accession in Gaul, freed the fiery "Trinitarian" Bishop Athanasius from exile and allowed him to return to Alexandria, causing problems for his brother Constantius II, an Arian. He was killed at 24 in battle with brother Constans, trying to seize more territory.

Constans I (337 - 350) – 17. Under influence of Athanasius, banned pagan sacrifice and waged a campaign against the Donatists in North Africa. Called Council of Serdica to deal with Arianism. He sold government posts to the highest bidder and was murdered by his army chief at 30.

Constantius II (337 - 361) – 20. On accession, he murdered many of his own family. Early in life influenced by presbyter Arius and his supporters.

"Vain & stupid... he bankrupted the courier service by frequent calls for Church Councils." (Ammianus).

Terrified of sorcery, Constantius persecuted “soothsayers and Hellenists.” However, shortly before his death at the age of 44, Christian monks were exempted from all public obligations.


Julian the Apostate (360-363) – 29. As a boy, escaped the murder of his family at the hands of his cousin Constantius. Instructed by bishops but, in secret, rejected Christianity. Made Caesar in 355, Augustus in 360. In vain, Julian attempted to restore religious tolerance and the 'old gods.' Assassinated at 32.



House of Valentinian – Retreat into "Piety"

Valentinian I (364 - 375) – 43. With Julian's murder (and the death of Jovian), this stolid soldier made emperor. Issued edict forbidding pagan officers to command Christian soldiers. He was impressed by Ambrose, whom he made praetorian prefect of Italy, governor of Milan and bishop. Little interested in religion but hostile to the old pagan aristocracy, which cleared the way for Christian ascendancy. Died in a fit of anger, at 54.

Valentinian's biggest mistake was making his obtuse brother Valens (364 - 378) co-ruler in the east (at 36). A zealous Arian, Valens ordered mass book-burning and persecution of non-Christians throughout the Eastern Empire. His arrogance led him to defeat and death at the hands of the Goths in 378 (aged 50).

Gratian (367 -383)– 8. Elder son of Valentinian. Tutored by Ausonius, a Christian poet from Gaul. No interest in the rigours of military life; withdrew his capital from Trier to the relative safety of Milan; held in contempt by army; murdered at 24 by Magnus Maximus (usurper emperor of the western provinces). Catspaw of Ambrose while he lived (abolished Vestal Virgins, removed Altar of Victory). Preferred hunting to ruling.

Valentinian II (375 -392) – 4. (Regent: Empress Justina ). This child prince, the younger son of Valentinian I, relied on Ambrose to negotiate with Maximus and remained a pawn in the power struggle between the Catholic bishop and his Arian mother. Intervention by Theodosius saved his throne, only to leave him under the thumb of generalissimo Arbogastes. Refused appeal to restore Altar of Victory. Murdered (suicide?) at 19.



House of Theodosius – Dissolute and Dissolution

Theodosius I (379 - 395) – 32. Sacked from the army by Valentinian I for cowardice; his seniority led a desperate 19-year-old Gratian to appoint him co-ruler for the east after death of his uncle Valens at Adrianople. After a near-death experience at 34, he emerged as Catholic fanatic. Manipulated by Ambrose he issued draconian anti-pagan laws (any disagreement with Christian dogma was declared "insane"). Libraries looted and burned. Temples closed and burned. Appointed general Stilicho as 'governor' in the west for his younger son Honorius. Died at 49. Disastrous legacy.

Arcadius (395 - 408) – 18. Elder son of Theodosius ruled ineffectually under praetorian prefects Tatian, Rufinus and Anthemius, chamberlain Eutropius (who appointed John Chrysostom patriarch) and forceful wife Eudoxia (who deposed Chrysostom). 'Withdrew' on her death, rarely leaving palace. Urged the Goths to invade Italy to save his own skin. Compensated for weak character with pious acts of religious intolerance (ordered that paganism be treated as "high treason" and any remaining temples be demolished); died at 31.

Honorius (395 - 423) – 10. Younger son of Theodosius murdered his protector, the brilliant general Stilicho, in 408, out of petulance and envy, paving the way for capitulation to German tribes migrating into Spain, Visigoths into southwest Gaul, and the loss of Britain. The feckless and timid youth abandoned Milan and Italy to the Goths while he cowed in Ravenna. Stirred himself to call a synod of bishops and rule in favour of Boniface against rival pope Eulalius and tried to get Theodosius to return Illyricum sees to papal authority. A synod in Carthage declared the study of pagan books prohibited and issued an approved "canon" of the Church. Honorius died at 38.

Theodosius II (408 - 450) – 7. (Regent: Empress Pulcheria) Early life of the only son of Arcadius was dominated by his resolute and pious sisters, his ambitious and pious wife Eudoxia (whom he married in 421), and the prefect Anthemius (who built the walls of Constantinople). Many edicts of intolerance were issued in his name.

While the young Theodosius pondered the nature of Christ, his eldest sister, the Empress Pulcheria, did much to advance the cult of "imperial mystique", and in her brother's name banned pagans from public and military posts, and ordered destruction of synagogues and temples. She also deposed Nestorius and returned the bones of John Chrysostom to Constantinople. In June 423 Pulcheria declared that the religion of the pagans was nothing more than “demon worship” and ordered all those who persisted in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture. Her emerging rival, the emperor's wife Eudoxia (ironically, daughter of a pagan philosopher) not to be outflanked in piety, went off to the Holy Land in 439 and returned with "important relics" to boost her own prestige. Eudoxia was eventually forced into exile in Jerusalem, where, in a new tactic, she embraced the cause of "monophysitism" later adopted by Theodosius II. When Theodosius finally escaped female fetters, he disastrously gave in to demands from the Huns for ever more gold and conceded to the Vandals a fully independent kingdom in North Africa.

Concentrating on really important matters, Theodosius convened the Council at Ephesus in 449 ("The Robber Council") and declared for the monophysitic position that "Christ had only one nature and it was divine" – alienating Pope Leo I. This infamous book-burner died at 49 – falling from his horse! The Codex Theodosianus preserved his name. His scheming widow, Pulcheria, married his successor, Marcian.

Valentinian III (425 - 455) – 6 (Regent: his mother Empress Galla Placidia). Owed his throne to intervention of Theodosius II in western politics. A religious fanatic, under the influence of astrologers, he was subservient in turns to his mother, generalissimo Aetius and Pope Leo I. Lost the provinces of Africa, part of Spain, much of Gaul. He murdered Aetius, the last able general in the west, and was himself murdered at 36.

The last Western Emperors barely ruled Italy itself.
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:27 PM   #619
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Dave, you've never read any amount of historical scholarship about this period, and relying on jesusneverexisted.com to fill this gap is a sorry mistake, because that person hasn't either.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:37 PM   #620
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:11 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
Dave, you've never read any amount of historical scholarship about this period, and relying on jesusneverexisted.com to fill this gap is a sorry mistake, because that person hasn't either.
I have read quite a bit of non-theist historical accounts of this period. This was just close enough to my thoughts / what I've been able to deduce as to post it verbatim.

The Church was no hero of the dark ages. Far from it. Had the Church had its way we would be all riding in ox drawn carts.

The Muslim Dark Ages began around 1170 CE and you can see the effect religion has had on the advancement of those countries under its sway. The "Dark Ages" were the christians version of the same thing. Had it not been for knowledge retained by the Arabs and the advancements they made during those periods, the world would be a radically different place.

Fortunately as the lamp of knowledge and progress ground to a halt in the Middle East the West began to stir from its 1,000 year slumber.

I'm sorry but you are wrong, although entitled to your opinion.
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Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:46 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
I have read quite a bit of non-theist historical accounts of this period. This was just close enough to my thoughts / what I've been able to deduce as to post it verbatim.

The Church was no hero of the dark ages. Far from it. Had the Church had its way we would be all riding in ox drawn carts.

The Muslim Dark Ages began around 1170 CE and you can see the effect religion has had on the advancement of those countries under its sway. The "Dark Ages" were the christians version of the same thing. Had it not been for knowledge retained by the Arabs and the advancements they made during those periods, the world would be a radically different place.

Fortunately as the lamp of knowledge and progress ground to a halt in the Middle East the West began to stir from its 1,000 year slumber.

I'm sorry but you are wrong, although entitled to your opinion.
Dave, we're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to distort the facts, as you're attempting to do. At least attempt to be honest in your assessments of the past. What historical accounts have you read from this time period?
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:23 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Literature View Post
Dave, we're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to distort the facts, as you're attempting to do. At least attempt to be honest in your assessments of the past. What historical accounts have you read from this time period?
There is 0 distortion of facts.

I've read many books on the subject most recently Charles Freeman, The Closing of the Western Mind.

There's no way to spin this skippy.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm

This is a list of many of the persecutions of intellectuals, members of other faiths, and the catastrophic ordering of knowledge destruction and book burning.

It starts in Acts and this one is my personal favorite.

448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

The plunge into the dark ages is all about the descent into a Islam type state for the West. We see how well its working for the Middle East.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:32 AM   #624
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The 'philosophy of the pagans' and secular public education were thus marginalised and eliminated. Lamented Ammianus Marcellinus, Rome's last great historian (who died in 395):

"Those few mansions which were once celebrated for the serious cultivation of liberal studies, now are filled with ridiculous amusements of torpid indolence ... The libraries, like tombs, are closed forever."


For those bright and privileged enough to seek education, career opportunities now lay exclusively within the hierarchy of the church and a Christianised state bureaucracy. With the active cooperation of the imperial court the Church had grasped complete control over education and, having done so, restricted instruction to potential priests.

Initially, rhetoric and grammar remained on the syllabus but knowledge which did not serve the purposes of the Church was suppressed. Mathematics, with its historic link to the 'demonic' philosophy of the Pythagoreans, was especially suspect:

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell."

St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:35 AM   #625
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Anyone who has some time and would like to see the effect of the Dark Ages can start here to read some more on the subject.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/winter.html

All one has to do is look at what Islam has done to the Middle East to understand the role of the church in the Dark Ages.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:23 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
There is 0 distortion of facts.

I've read many books on the subject most recently Charles Freeman, The Closing of the Western Mind.

There's no way to spin this skippy.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
Let's make sure we're on the same page here.

My argument: When the Western Roman Empire crumbled in late antiquity, it caused a severe breakdown in modes of education and social and political stability, which in turn plunged Western Civilization into a period of relative 'darkness.' This darkness contained several modes of 'light,' however. These lights were fueled primarily by the Catholic Church, whose monasteries and political and social authority (though vastly underwhelming compared to the Roman Empire shoes it tried to fill) kept alive the spark of the Greco-Roman Civilization that preceded it.

Your argument: When the Western Roman Empire crumbled in late antiquity, there was no dramatic crumbling of Western Civilization culture, because that had already succumbed to the increased power of the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that fueled this darkness, rather than it remain the lamps of Greco-Roman Civilization. This is an opposite historical path compared to what happened in the Eastern Roman Empire and Arab Empire, which saw continuing advancements in science and education for the sole purpose that there was no Catholic Church.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:42 AM   #627
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Initially, rhetoric and grammar remained on the syllabus but knowledge which did not serve the purposes of the Church was suppressed. Mathematics, with its historic link to the 'demonic' philosophy of the Pythagoreans, was especially suspect:

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell."

St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37.
Dave, Augustine is talking about astrologers and soothsayers there; not people who thought about math as we know it today.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #628
Brainiac Brainiac is offline
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This thread has evolved into a thread with way too much serious discussion and not nearly enough mocking and laughing at Killer Clown.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:18 PM   #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Literature View Post
Dave, Augustine is talking about astrologers and soothsayers there; not people who thought about math as we know it today.
Was he levitating when he talked about this?
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:40 PM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This thread has evolved into a thread with way too much serious discussion and not nearly enough mocking and laughing at Killer Clown.
seconded. It doesn't have to be directed only at KC. So let's get back to laughing at creationists, shall we?

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