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Old 10-25-2012, 06:02 AM  
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ZMA is the shit

Does anyone else here take it? Its Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. I take it right before bed and I get the best sleep ever. Hell, I've even had control of my dreams.

Waking up is super easy and overall I feel more like a man. Check it out if you.haven't already.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:32 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
This thread could use some Science.....

First off... most of the "Supplements" available do not do what you think they do. Supplements by and large are simply snake oil meant to take your money while giving you the psychologically pleasing feeling of helping yourself. There are some things for sure that actually have affects on your body that make it worth it, as you'll see from the graphic below.

I know there will be many posts saying BS, it worked for me and this guy I know. But generally all these ingredients have been studied to the point that we can prove exactly what it does and doesn't do. If you're convinced it's working for you, then great. That feeling of "Something is making me feel better" is powerful in its own right. Just know that anything labeled "Supplement" has no proof of whatever claim it makes. If there were any proof, it wouldn't need to be labeled as a supplement. And remember that supplements themselves are the least efficient way to introduce those ingredients into your body. Supplements generally are drastically less effective than ingesting actual foods containing those ingredients. Taking a Vitamin C pill is infinitely less effective than eating a couple oranges, etc. Whenever possible, go for the source of whatever ingredient you're wanting.

Here's a very handy graph, showing where the majority of supplements stack up. Note the "Worth it" line. Essentially everything under that isn't worth the money spent on the product. This graphic is dynamically updated and pulls info from the giant table of documentation at the link at the bottom of this post.

Unfortunately, the 3 ingredients in ZMA aren't even over the "Worth it" line.



And here's the link with all the information used to construct this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_GB#gid=0

That includes links to case studies and actual scientific information from sources that are not trying to sell you what they're recommending.
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:41 PM   #92
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It depends on what what you are using them for. Here is a study showing Vitamin A > Steroids in kids that are short and late puberty bloomers. He said Vit A is basically worthless.

http://www.ncbi..nih.gov/pubmed/15163330

Vitamin A and iron supplementation is as efficient as hormonal therapy in constitutionally delayed children.
Zadik Z, Sinai T, Zung A, Reifen R.
SourcePediatric Endocrine Unit, Kaplan Medical Center, Rehovot, Israel. zvivadik@012.net.il

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To assess the effect of nutritional supplementation on growth and puberty in constitutionally delayed children.

PATIENTS: One hundred and two boys, 13.6-15.5 years of age, who were referred because of short stature and delayed puberty.

METHODS: The boys were randomly allocated to one of the following treatment groups: oxandrolone therapy, 5 mg/day for 6 months (n = 15), testosterone depot, 100 mg monthly for 3 months (n = 15) or for 6 months (n = 20), nutritional programme (n = 17), oxandrolone and nutritional programme (n = 15) or passive observation (n = 20). Boys in the nutritional programmes received 12 mg/day iron and 6000 IU/week of vitamin A. Outcome measurements were of height, weight, pubertal signs, dietary intake, serum vitamin A, iron, GH and IGF-1.

RESULTS: Six months of vitamin A supplementation induced growth acceleration similar to that seen in the oxandrolone- and testosterone-treated children, and significantly greater than in the observation group (9.3 +/- 2.9 vs. 4.0 +/- 0.9 crn/yr, P < 0.001). Whereas in the vitamin A-supplemented group, puberty (increase in testicular volume >/= 12 ml) was induced within 12 months. In all testosterone-treated patients, pubic hair was noted within 3 months and a testicular volume of >/= 12 ml was observed 9-12 months after the initiation of therapy. No pubertal signs were noted in the observation group during this time.

CONCLUSIONS: Subnormal vitamin A intake is one of the aetiological factors in delayed pubertal maturation. Supplementation of both vitamin A and iron to normal constitutionally delayed children with subnormal vitamin A intake is as efficacious as hormonal therapy in the induction of growth and puberty.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #93
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:50 PM   #94
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:52 PM   #95
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:56 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by TheGuardian View Post
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.
You must not have looked at the studies then....

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/...Deficient.aspx

The link you posted references 2 studies.

Here's the first:

Quote:
http://www.ncbi..nih.gov/pubmed/21744023

Abstract
Zinc and selenium are essential minerals and have roles for more than 300 metabolic reactions in the body. The purpose of this study was to investigate how exhaustive exercise affects testosterone levels and plasma lactate in cyclists who were supplemented with oral zinc and selenium for 4 weeks. For this reason, 32 male road cyclists were selected equally to four groups: PL group, placebo; Zn group, zinc supplement (30 mg/day); Se group, selenium supplement (200 μg/day); and Zn-Se group, zinc-selenium supplement. After treatment, free, total testosterone, and lactate levels of subjects were determined before and after exhaustive exercise. Resting total, free testosterone, and lactate levels did not differ significantly between groups, and were increased by exercise (P > 0.05). Serum total testosterone levels in Zn group were higher than in Se group after exercise (P < 0.05). Serum-free testosterone levels in the Zn group were higher than the other groups (P < 0.05).There was an insignificant difference between levels of lactate in the four groups after exercise (P > 0.05). The results showed that 4-week simultaneous and separately zinc and selenium supplementation had no significant effect on resting testosterone and lactate levels of subjects who consume a zinc and selenium sufficient diet. It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise.
So... for one, the study group only contained 32 people. And the results showed that simply taking Zinc and Selenium supplements had no significant effect. They attributed the differences to exercise, and not Zinc. And even so, the differences are so small that it's not really very conclusive.

It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.

The second study:

Quote:
http://www.ncbi..nih.gov/pubmed/21671089

Abstract
Testosterone deficiency is associated with late-onset hypogonadism. Micronutrients including copper (Cu) and zinc (Zn) influence testosterone synthesis. The association between micronutrient concentrations in hair tissue and serum testosterone was studied in Korean men. The subjects were 88 men 40-60 years of age who visited the health promotion center and an outpatient clinic of family medicine at a university hospital from March 2006 to February 2008. Population sociological features of the subjects were acquired by self-administered surveys and interview, height and weight were measured, serum total testosterone was determined in the morning, and Cu and Zn were quantified from hair tissue collected in the morning. Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group (P = 0.003). Significant negative correlations were evident between total testosterone and Cu level (r = -0.252, P = 0.022), and the Cu/Zn ratio (r = -0.288, P = 0.008). Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.
This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:07 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Buck View Post
Yes. This used select studies to create the chart. I'm sure you could create a chart with everything flipped if you found the right studies.

First hand though, ZMA has made me feel better than pretty much any other supplement. That's pretty much all I can go off of.

You probably don't even like trains.
No, for the most part this uses studies from NCBI, The National Center for Biotechnology Information, and NLM the US National Library of Medicine. Which I believe is the most unbiased and truthful sources possible for this kind of info.

**** trains.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:13 PM   #98
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:13 PM   #99
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Ever had a dream about a girl giving you a bj and waking up and felt like she did it. I had a dream like that one night.
that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:17 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post

It essentially says that taking the supplements by themselves had zero effect. And taking the supplements while exercising had a very small effect, but it might be simply because of the exercise.
Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.


Quote:

This study is investigating hypogonadism in Korean men aged 40-60. Hypogonadism is a lack of hormones. Specifically in this case, testosterone. It's a little baffling as to how this study could be referenced to support Zinc intake affecting testosterone. All this study shows is that when testosterone levels are low, so are Zinc levels. It doesn't show that Zinc increases testosterone at all. It only describes the inverse relationship. When testosterone levels drop, so do Zinc levels. That's doesn't do any good in proving the opposite though.

This happens a lot. People will reference some silly study, and not bother to actually apply what the study says to the statement they're making.

Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....

Quote:
Subjects with normal testosterone group had a significantly higher Zn level compared to low testosterone group.

Normal testosterone is associated with a higher Zn level. Decreased serum testosterone is significantly associated with a high level of Cu and elevated Cu/Zn ratio in hair tissue.
Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:24 PM   #101
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that's called a "wet dream" nut. i don't think you need suppliments for that. just puberty.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:34 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by TheGuardian View Post
Actually it reads......

"It might be possible that the effect of zinc supplementation on free testosterone depends on exercise."

SO it might be, or it might not be.





Apparently you didn't want to quote that study.

Here you go.....



Which is what I have said all along. If you are low in zinc you might also be low in natural test, or vice versa. So yeah, I'm right.
Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian View Post
I already provided a link that had studies done as well that proved a supplement like zinc does have helpful benefits.

And this from a guy that doesn't take supplements or believe in them for the most part.
Yea there is always a know it all that thinks they are the great scientific one. If you have problems sleeping and ZMA allows you to sleep better I think the benefits of a good nights sleep are well documented right down to your GH levels.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by KC Fish View Post
Might be. Might not be.... OK, but that's not really conclusive is it?

And you are confusing the direction of correlation in the second study. It's saying that normal testosterone is associated with higher Zinc levels. Which is true. The title of the link you posted reads: "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels..." But that's not what the second study shows at all. The study researched how testosterone levels affected Cu and Zn levels, not how Zn and Cu levels affect testosterone. The difference and direction is important. And besides that, testing Cu and Zn levels in the hair of testosterone deficient old Koreans isn't exactly the best test base for what we're talking about here.
Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:04 PM   #105
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Right.

And my original point I believe, was that if you were low in zinc you could also be low in test, or vice versa. Not that zinc would make you a superman in terms of test levels. But healthy levels of test are in fact related to zinc levels.
The source you used to make your point says in the title "Tip 151: Take Zinc and Increase Testosterone Levels at Rest..." Then it references a study which directly shows that Zinc will not raise testosterone at rest. It's misinformation, that's all. I agree that the levels are related in some ways. But that doesn't show that taking Zinc will raise Testosterone. Some people might read your link and think that to be the case.

Again, my only point was that the majority of people are wasting money on supplements because of the great deal of misinformation on the topic.
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