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Old 11-07-2012, 07:34 AM  
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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Puerto Rico wants to become 51st State

Why? Because they want some benefits and entitlements of course!




http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11...lls-open-late/



Puerto Ricans faced a fundamental question on Election Day: Should they change their ties with the United States?

Citizens in the U.S. island territory cannot vote in the U.S. presidential election, but many were excited to participate in a referendum on whether to push the territory toward statehood, greater autonomy or independence.

Car horns blared and party flags waved after polling stations closed following what election officials said was a high voter turnout. During the day, many voters carried umbrellas against the blistering tropical sun as temperatures neared 90 degrees Fahrenheit (31 degrees Celsius).

The two-part referendum first asked voters if they wanted to change Puerto Rico's 114-year relationship with the United States. A second question gave voters three alternatives if they wanted a change: become a U.S. state, gain independence, or have a "sovereign free association," a designation that would give more autonomy for the territory of 4 million people.

With 243 of 1,643 precincts reporting late Tuesday, 75,188 voters, or 53 percent, said they did not want to continue under the current political status. Forty-seven percent, or 67,304 voters, supported the status quo.

On the second question, 65 percent favored statehood, followed by 31 percent for sovereign free association and 4 percent for independence.

"Puerto Rico has to be a state. There is no other option," said 25-year-old Jerome Lefebre, who picked up his grandfather before driving to the polls. "We're doing OK, but we could do better. We would receive more benefits, a lot more financial help."

But 42-year-old Ramon Lopez de Azua said he favored the current system, which grants U.S. citizenship but prevents Puerto Ricans from voting for president unless they live in the United States, and gives those on the island only limited representation in Congress.

"Puerto Rico's problem is not its political status," he said. "I think that the United States is the best country in the world, but I am Puerto Rican first."

Both President Barack Obama and rival Mitt Romney said they supported the referendum, with Obama pledging to respect the will of the people if there was a clear majority. Any change would require approval by the U.S. Congress.

Puerto Rico held non-binding referendums in 1967, 1993 and 1998, with statehood never garnering a clear majority and independence never obtaining more than 5 percent of the vote.

The island also was electing legislators and a governor, with Gov. Luis Fortuno of the pro-statehood New Progressive Party seeking a second term. Fortuno, a Republican, was challenged by Alejandro Garcia Padilla, whose Popular Democratic Party favors the status quo. With 817 of 1,643 precincts reporting late Tuesday, Garcia had 427,604 votes, or 48 percent, while Fortuno had 422,506 votes, or 47 percent.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:16 AM   #31
J Diddy J Diddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h5n1 View Post
ok, I'll bite--what's your problem with this?
I've pondered and I came to the conclusion that PR in pr capone stands for puerto rican.

That's all I got.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:17 AM   #32
Ebolapox Ebolapox is offline
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
I've pondered and I came to the conclusion that PR in pr capone stands for puerto rican.

That's all I got.
that's common knowledge on the forum, actually. still, I don't ever recall his elucidating his reasoning for this--he's said this on several occasions.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:17 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I can't imagine what anybody could possibly have against Puerto Rico becoming a state...
Because people don't like wearing their tinfoil hats to the beach, I presume.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:47 AM   #34
pr_capone pr_capone is offline
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My biggest problem with PR becoming a state is not political but cultural. Take Hawaii as an example of what imposed US rule will do to the heritage and history of a country.

This next part is copy pasta but well stated. This is the exact message I received as a child growing up in PR.

Quote:
"The US has treated Puerto Rico as little more than a colony for 100 years, and this has seeped into the Puerto Rican mentality in harmful ways. According to educational scientists Francesco Cordasco and Eugene Bucchioni, in their 1973 work The Puerto Rican Experience: a Sociological Sourcebook, the belief that Puerto Rico cannot survive on its own results from teachings since grade school. “Puerto Ricans here and in Puerto Rico are taught three things: Puerto Rico is small and the US is big, Puerto Rico is poor and the US is rich, Puerto Rico is weak and the US is strong.”

Popular author and Puerto Rican culture enthusiast Jesús Omar Rivera similarly argues that “in Puerto Rico, ever since you are a child, you are told that you live on a tiny island that has no natural resources, nothing. This is what they teach you in school, on TV, the media, and it’s always negative.” He argues says this perception is a by-product of the island’s political dependence on the U.S.. “There is this colonized mentality that everything from abroad is better.” None of this would change under statehood, and arguably would get even worse as Puerto Rican culture, still perceived as 'inferior' to all things American, would decline even further.
Historically speaking, and a point to my Stockholm Syndrome reference earlier, the US has quelled numerous attempts to overthrow US rule in PR since invading the island in 1898. Over time, Puerto Ricans realized that we obviously couldn't do anything about the occupation (US is so big and strong and we are a tiny island nation) so the populous decided to just make the best of it by approving commonwealth status in the 50's. Eventually that lead to a dependence on the US that has lead the population to believe that we simply could not stand on our own without the US.

The thought that the US magnanimously granted Puerto Ricans, conditional, citizenship via the Jones act of 1917 in order to help a poor and downtrodden people is ridiculous. The Jones act allowed for Puerto Ricans, despite their inability to elect a president, to be drafted. 20k Puerto Rican soldiers were immediately conscripted and sent to fight a war on behalf of a nation that only 20 years earlier had invaded their home land.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:55 AM   #35
pr_capone pr_capone is offline
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Also, the thread title is massively misleading. The results of the polling are being questioned by experts.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...lenge-results/

Quote:
The ballot included offices including the governor as well as its territory status. It’s not known how many voters skipped the territory question.

The territory question had two parts. The first part asked voters if they favored their current status as a U.S. territory. About 54 percent of voters said no, that they were not happy with the status quo.

From there, everyone could answer a second question that gave three options: statehood, sovereign free association or independence. Sovereign free association is not the same as the current status.

Only about 1.3 million voters answered the second question. Of those, 61 percent chose statehood, 33 percent chose the semi-autonomous choice and 6 percent chose independence, according to the AP. Nearly 500,000 people left the question blank. The population of Puerto Rico is nearly 4 million people.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:26 AM   #36
Jayhawkerman2001 Jayhawkerman2001 is offline
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its been up for a vote there for a few times if i remember correctly. and their people turn it down because they get the benefits of the US without having to pay any taxes
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
My biggest problem with PR becoming a state is not political but cultural. Take Hawaii as an example of what imposed US rule will do to the heritage and history of a country.

This next part is copy pasta but well stated. This is the exact message I received as a child growing up in PR.



Historically speaking, and a point to my Stockholm Syndrome reference earlier, the US has quelled numerous attempts to overthrow US rule in PR since invading the island in 1898. Over time, Puerto Ricans realized that we obviously couldn't do anything about the occupation (US is so big and strong and we are a tiny island nation) so the populous decided to just make the best of it by approving commonwealth status in the 50's. Eventually that lead to a dependence on the US that has lead the population to believe that we simply could not stand on our own without the US.

The thought that the US magnanimously granted Puerto Ricans, conditional, citizenship via the Jones act of 1917 in order to help a poor and downtrodden people is ridiculous. The Jones act allowed for Puerto Ricans, despite their inability to elect a president, to be drafted. 20k Puerto Rican soldiers were immediately conscripted and sent to fight a war on behalf of a nation that only 20 years earlier had invaded their home land.
If you support independence, thats at least more sane than the people who support the status quo.

Right now, Puerto Rico basically is a colony, because they have no meaningful representation at the federal level. An island with this many people in this day and age really should not be a colony at all, and the US rightfully gets crap for it from the UN.

By voting for the present status over statehood, those people are basically just saying no to a hell of a lot of federal funding and roughly 7 or 8 people in the house and senate, in exchange for not paying income taxes, which many of them would not owe anyway.

Long-term, the present status for PR is unacceptable, which is why I really am not concerned about the blank votes.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:54 AM   #38
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:23 AM   #39
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:25 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by HemiEd View Post
Working our way up to 57 States.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:29 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
My biggest problem with PR becoming a state is not political but cultural. Take Hawaii as an example of what imposed US rule will do to the heritage and history of a country.

This next part is copy pasta but well stated. This is the exact message I received as a child growing up in PR.



Historically speaking, and a point to my Stockholm Syndrome reference earlier, the US has quelled numerous attempts to overthrow US rule in PR since invading the island in 1898. Over time, Puerto Ricans realized that we obviously couldn't do anything about the occupation (US is so big and strong and we are a tiny island nation) so the populous decided to just make the best of it by approving commonwealth status in the 50's. Eventually that lead to a dependence on the US that has lead the population to believe that we simply could not stand on our own without the US.

The thought that the US magnanimously granted Puerto Ricans, conditional, citizenship via the Jones act of 1917 in order to help a poor and downtrodden people is ridiculous. The Jones act allowed for Puerto Ricans, despite their inability to elect a president, to be drafted. 20k Puerto Rican soldiers were immediately conscripted and sent to fight a war on behalf of a nation that only 20 years earlier had invaded their home land.
WOW! Thanks for the history lesson. Hong Kong is another small island that has been economically successful. They import significant resources but people are a resource too. I'd look to them as an example.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:47 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
My biggest problem with PR becoming a state is not political but cultural. Take Hawaii as an example of what imposed US rule will do to the heritage and history of a country.

This next part is copy pasta but well stated. This is the exact message I received as a child growing up in PR.



Historically speaking, and a point to my Stockholm Syndrome reference earlier, the US has quelled numerous attempts to overthrow US rule in PR since invading the island in 1898. Over time, Puerto Ricans realized that we obviously couldn't do anything about the occupation (US is so big and strong and we are a tiny island nation) so the populous decided to just make the best of it by approving commonwealth status in the 50's. Eventually that lead to a dependence on the US that has lead the population to believe that we simply could not stand on our own without the US.

The thought that the US magnanimously granted Puerto Ricans, conditional, citizenship via the Jones act of 1917 in order to help a poor and downtrodden people is ridiculous. The Jones act allowed for Puerto Ricans, despite their inability to elect a president, to be drafted. 20k Puerto Rican soldiers were immediately conscripted and sent to fight a war on behalf of a nation that only 20 years earlier had invaded their home land.
guam doesn't seem to have this issue. and, call me crazy, but didn't puerto rico go from a spanish colony to US colony? it's not like there's a rich history of independence in the first place.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:49 AM   #43
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I mean... don't get me crazy, I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I COMPLETELY understand your position.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:38 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h5n1 View Post
guam doesn't seem to have this issue. and, call me crazy, but didn't puerto rico go from a spanish colony to US colony? it's not like there's a rich history of independence in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by h5n1 View Post
I mean... don't get me crazy, I'm not trying to be an asshole, and I COMPLETELY understand your position.
All good meng!

Yes, PR went from a colony of Spain to a colony of the US. The sticking point in this though is that in 1897, Spain had granted PR political and administrative autonomy with the end game being complete independence. This was a victory that many people gave their lives for (see Grito de Lares) and the first step to total independence from Spain and/or any other country. Puerto Ricans had been trying to overthrow Spanish rule for nearly a century before the agreement of autonomy was put in place.

When the US won the Spanish-American war, the Treaty of Paris was signed and Spain gave control of PR to the US. Puerto Ricans were never consulted on the matter and our bid for independence came to an end in 1898 when the USS Yale fired on the capital and the USS Yosemite blocked the harbor in San Juan. The US invaded, what was essentially sovereign soil, and declared marshal law.

We never had a chance.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:39 PM   #45
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All good meng!

Yes, PR went from a colony of Spain to a colony of the US. The sticking point in this though is that in 1897, Spain had granted PR political and administrative autonomy with the end game being complete independence. This was a victory that many people gave their lives for (see Grito de Lares) and the first step to total independence from Spain and/or any other country. Puerto Ricans had been trying to overthrow Spanish rule for nearly a century before the agreement of autonomy was put in place.

When the US won the Spanish-American war, the Treaty of Paris was signed and Spain gave control of PR to the US. Puerto Ricans were never consulted on the matter and our bid for independence came to an end in 1898 when the USS Yale fired on the capital and the USS Yosemite blocked the harbor in San Juan. The US invaded, what was essentially sovereign soil, and declared marshal law.

We never had a chance.
ah, gotcha. that COMPLETELY blows then--I hadn't read that far into the history. yeah, there is a bit of stockholm syndrome there now that you mention it.
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