Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Ed & Dave Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2012, 03:11 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7857
Karl Rove and Super PACs

Watching the election results, and how Karl Rove spent $300 million through his super PAC on candidates that all lost, it's easy to forgive the non-role super PACs seemed to have played in deciding the 2012 election.

The thing is, coming to that conclusion is short-sighted. It's incorrect.

The fact that there are organizations that raise hundreds of millions from billionaires to influence elections is an egregious abuse of inequality and, frankly, antidemocratic.

Allowing unlimited funding still gives wealthy people yet another political leg up on everybody else in getting their message out there.

Because donating tons and tons of dollars isn't necessarily about winning. It's about investing in a party that will fight for you when the politicking starts:

Quote:
Winning isn’t everything. Nor is it the only thing. When you spend tens of millions of dollars trying to influence an election, you obviously want your preferred candidate to win. But the binary outcome of the election isn’t the only thing you can, or want, to influence. Your money is also going to affect: the policy issues your candidate raises, the positions on those policies that he introduces into the discourse, what issues he chooses to attack his opponent on, the way the media frames these debates, and so on and so forth. If Sheldon Adelson’s goal was to make sure neither candidate questioned the use of drones or backed the Colorado pot initiative, well, mission accomplished. It’s not like the end goal here is to get a man into the office; the goal is ultimately to influence policy.
By spending $300 million on Republican candidates, Karl Rove and his billionaires own the GOP. They own them.

Because a political donation of, let's say, a million dollars, isn't just a one-time purchase. It's communicating that I could give you a million more in the future. Therefore the party that ends up reaping that benefit (and both parties now rely on this) must now slave away for your demands, lest they risk those nine-figure donation checks going to the other party.

Despite the horrific results of the 2012 elections for Karl Rove, he is still very much in control of the GOP. And the wealthy remain very much in control of both parties.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z2

Karl Rove and his super PAC vow to press on
By Karen Tumulty,
Nov 10, 2012 11:58 PM EST

In the post-mortems of the 2012 election campaigns, it is already being written that the much-feared super PACs — those ostensibly independent, billionaire-funded outside organizations and their hundreds of millions in negative ads — turned out to be a bust.

At the center of the wreckage stands Karl Rove, the GOP strategist and supposed dark genius who for more than a decade has figured in the mythos of both parties.

With more than a little glee, Democrats and even some Republicans say the electoral defeat of so many candidates backed by his brainchild, a behemoth super PAC called American Crossroads, is proof that politics has finally passed Rove by.

It will be no surprise that Rove, not known for self-doubt, differs with that assessment.

“We did good things this year,” Rove said in an interview from California, where he had just given a speech with former Obama White House press secretary Robert Gibbs at an Association of Equipment Manufacturers convention. “But look, it’s the way of politics that you’re going to have some good years, and you’re going to have some bad years.”

As Rove sees it, the campaign proved that American Crossroads and its more secretive issue-advocacy arm, Crossroads GPS — which allows donors to remain anonymous — are here to stay.

Rove is pondering new missions for Crossroads to address weaknesses laid bare by the GOP’s back-to-back failures to win the White House and the fact that the party fell short when expected to win back the Senate.

Where until now it battled only in general elections and against Democrats, Crossroads is considering whether to start picking sides in Republican primaries. The idea would be to boost the candidate it deems most electable and avoid nominating the kind of flawed and extreme ones who cost the party what should otherwise have been easy Senate wins in Florida, Missouri and Indiana.

That, however, could put Crossroads at odds with the tea party and other groups that devote their energies to promoting the most ideologically pure contenders.

Crossroads also is likely to invest more deeply in organizations such as the Republican State Leadership Committee, which has been trying to build a more appealing GOP farm team by, among other things, recruiting Hispanic candidates to run for state-level office.

And it is raising money to run advertising shoring up the congressional Republicans during the upcoming negotiations to avert the “fiscal cliff.”

For Crossroads, 2012 was a $300 million learning experience.

“We’ve got to carefully examine, as we did after 2010, an after-action report looking at everything with fresh eyes and questioning and figuring out what worked and what didn’t work,” Rove said.

The failure of Crossroads to live up to expectations is not the only thing that has put Rove back into the news and revived the intrigue that surrounds a man whose seen and unseen hand works in so many places in politics.

In his role as an election-night pundit on Fox News, Rove got into a much-talked-about, on-air argument with the network when it decided to call Ohio for President Obama.

He also created a stir two days later, when he accused Obama’s campaign of “suppressing the vote,” using language that Democrats apply to measures such as voter ID laws that make it more cumbersome for people to cast ballots. Rove said he was referring to the denigration of Mitt Romney that made him less palatable to voters looking for an alternative to Obama.

Rove’s is the most famous name associated with Crossroads, but he said he receives no money from it, not even travel expenses, for his work as a strategist and fundraiser. Its day-to-day operations are run by its president, Steven Law.

Outside their circle, many of the performance reviews have been scathing.

The Sunlight Foundation, which tracks money in politics, calculated that only 6 percent of Crossroads money went to winners; by comparison, the Service Employees International Union, an old war horse of Democratic politics, had a 70 percent victory rate.

Celebrity real estate developer Donald Trump taunted on Twitter: “Congrats to @KarlRove on blowing $400 million this cycle. Every race @CrossroadsGPS ran ads in, the Republicans lost. What a waste of money.”

And Obama strategists David Axelrod said: “If I were one of those billionaires funding Crossroads and other organizations, I’d be wanting to talk to someone and asking where my refund is, because they didn’t get much for their money.”

However, Romney’s campaign manager, Matt Rhoades, insisted Crossroads and the pro-Romney super PAC Restore Our Future “had a very positive impact on leveling the playing field in key target states.”

“Obama for America had a strategy to put Gov. Romney and his campaign away early,” Rhoades wrote in an e-mail. “In looking back, it might have worked if these organizations hadn’t countered them in the spring and summer.”

Others in the Romney campaign, speaking on the condition of anonymity, were bitter that the super PACs didn’t do more to defend the Republican nominee and his business record, particularly in the late summer, when the campaign had run through its own primary-season funding.

“We didn’t have any air cover,” lamented one senior adviser.

That, Rove suggested, was the result of a missed signal.

The law forbids super PACs from coordinating with candidates, so it sets up an interaction that Rove compares to playing bridge, a game in which players make their moves based on cues from their partners.

“We can’t talk to the campaigns,” he said. “But we’ve got to understand what the candidate’s message is by closely following their public statements and campaign activities, do a lot of research to understand what the weaknesses of their opponents are, and read the tea leaves.”

In July, after Obama and his allies began pounding Romney’s record at the private equity firm Bain Capital, Crossroads spent $9.3 million on ads in nine states, in which a female narrator asked: “What happened to Barack Obama? The press and even Democrats say his attacks on Mitt Romney’s business record are misleading, unfair and untrue.”

The response from the Romney campaign? Radio silence, which the Crossroads team read to mean the strategists in Boston did not believe engaging on that issue was important. So Crossroads quit running the spots.

Another lapse, in the view of some, was Crossroads’s failure to air positive ads that would acquaint voters with Romney’s biography and his achievements.

“They ran basically the same ad over and over. They were working from a theory of the case that turned out to be extraordinarily flawed,” said Obama adviser Anita Dunn. “Their theory was that making it a referendum on Obama’s stewardship of the economy was all they had to do.”

Rove’s reputation for seeing the Next Big Thing in politics goes back to the late 1970s, when he arrived in Texas to set up a direct-mail operation. At the time, Republicans held only one statewide elected office; when he left in 2001, Republicans were in all 29 of them — and most of those officials had at one time or another been Rove’s clients.

When Rove started touting the prospects of George W. Bush in the late 1980s, the future governor and president was a failed oilman with little more than his famous last name going for him. Rove sold his business and moved to Washington with Bush, becoming so instrumental in his 2004 reelection that the president memorably dubbed him “the architect.”

The idea for Crossroads was born shortly after the 2008 election, when Rove wrote a column for the Wall Street Journal lamenting the fact that the Republicans had no equivalent to the alliance of organized labor and liberal interest groups that had spent $194 million on independent advertising for Democrats during the previous two years.

The next day, Rove recalled, he heard from former Republican chairman Ed Gillespie, who said, “Great idea. What are we going to do about it?”

As they talked to potential donors, Rove said, they realized “there was just a generalized sense that too much of this kind of activity was basically of, by and for the consultants. Donors said, ‘Consultants set these things up, pay a commission to fundraisers, hire themselves to do the work and pay themselves too much.’ ”

“Major donors said, ‘We write checks to these groups, but we’re not enthusiastic, given how they are going about their business,’ ” Rove said.

He and Gillespie also began sounding out the Senate Republican leadership, which recommended Law, a former aide to Republican leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), to run it. The two talked him into the job, though it meant that Law had to leave a far more lucrative post as general counsel at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

In January 2010, the Supreme Court lifted the restrictions on political contributions by corporations and unions, a move that campaign finance experts say also spawned the growth of super PACs, by giving a green light to big contributions from individuals. Rove insists that Crossroads could and would have happened even without that decision.

In April, Rove and Gillespie invited representatives of 18 conservative groups to a lunch of chicken pot pie at Rove’s Weaver Terrace home and unveiled their idea for a coordinated effort.

“You could tell there was a lot of skepticism,” Rove recalled. “It was palpable.”

That was until they met again the following month and, at Law’s suggestion, passed around their $45 million budget. They explained which Senate races they wanted to become involved in, their polling budget and the amount of advertising they could buy.

“It was, like, jaw dropping. You could just sort of see people saying, ‘What is going on?’ But it helped set in motion a wonderful collegial process,” Rove said.

In the 2010 midterm election, “we were able to make sure we weren’t running ads on top of each other. We were coordinating on message. We arrived at an agreed-upon list of congressional races in priority order,” he recalled.

They tried running a get-out-the-vote operation in Las Vegas that year, Rove said, but discovered they couldn’t do it as economically or efficiently as a political party could.

Rove boasts that Crossroads remains an efficient operation.

He noted it has a relatively small staff of 19 and said it pays its ad makers only 3 percent of the amount spent, the bottom in an industry where 10 and 15 percent fees used to be common. Ninety-five cents out of every dollar that Crossroads spends “goes onto the target,” he said.

And his wealthy donors? “They all went into this eyes wide open,” Rove said, “and their attitude is, beat them next time.”

Last edited by Direckshun; 11-11-2012 at 03:24 PM..
Posts: 44,312
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #46
J Diddy J Diddy is offline
One Groovy Cat
 
J Diddy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The Pitt State baby
Casino cash: $6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Right, they shouldn't be able to spend more than the local grocery bagger or tanning salon attendant can afford!
They should have a set amount and go with it. It shouldn't be an extended Hollywood production.
Posts: 29,531
J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 03:36 AM   #47
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Swing and a miss.
Why should he be allowed to spend more than that? Why isn't that undemocratic?
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 03:38 AM   #48
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
They should have a set amount and go with it. It shouldn't be an extended Hollywood production.
Sounds pretty arbitrary to me. On what principle are you basing this?
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 05:45 AM   #49
whoman69 whoman69 is offline
The Master
 
whoman69's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Casino cash: $5000
Money is not speech, its influence. The whole premise of the SCOTUS was incorrect when you call out that reality. What campaign contributions should be is money given to a candidate that you support because they have the same views as you, views they will put into policy. What Citizens United does now is that to the politician now changes his view to support the group that gives him money. They are no longer acting on what they think are the best interests of the country, only the best interests of those that pay to keep him in office.
__________________
-Watching Eddie Podolak
Quote:
Originally posted by Logical
When the boobs are a bouncin, the Chiefs will be trouncin
What the Raiders fan has said is true, our customs are different. What Al Davis has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words.
Posts: 23,081
whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.whoman69 is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:14 AM   #50
J Diddy J Diddy is offline
One Groovy Cat
 
J Diddy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The Pitt State baby
Casino cash: $6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Sounds pretty arbitrary to me. On what principle are you basing this?
Perhaps it is, but it's a whole lot simpler.
Posts: 29,531
J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.J Diddy is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:51 AM   #51
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoman69 View Post
Money is not speech, its influence. The whole premise of the SCOTUS was incorrect when you call out that reality. What campaign contributions should be is money given to a candidate that you support because they have the same views as you, views they will put into policy. What Citizens United does now is that to the politician now changes his view to support the group that gives him money. They are no longer acting on what they think are the best interests of the country, only the best interests of those that pay to keep him in office.
I see you don't know what Citizens United was really about. Shocking.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 06:54 AM   #52
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
Perhaps it is, but it's a whole lot simpler.
There is nothing simpler than letting people spend their own money as they see fit when it comes to political speech.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 07:38 AM   #53
penchief penchief is offline
MVP
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There is nothing simpler than letting people spend their own money as they see fit when it comes to political speech.
Then why do it anonymously? I get the whole "bribery is free speech" argument. I just don't agree with it. If one wants to exercise their free speech rights they have every right to do so without secretly donating millions to shadow organizations that work "indirectly" for political campaigns.

The epitomy of free speech is standing in the town square proclaiming one's beliefs. Anonymous dontations and free speech are not the same thing.

And since when are corporations people? They're not. So why do those who operate within a corporate entity get to double dip when it comes to free speech and donations? That person has the same rights the rest of us do as citizens. And they can give under the same limitations. Why then should they also get to hide behind the banner of a corporation and give tons more than we could ever give individually?

It tilts the playing field in favor of corporations. And disempowers the average American. That is painfully obvious. All Citizens United accomplished was to define money as speech. And those with the most money have the most speech. One bank account can drown out the voices of millions.
Posts: 14,492
penchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking about
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:09 AM   #54
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Why should he be allowed to spend more than that? Why isn't that undemocratic?
In my ideal world, we go to public financing, which means a fraction of every person's taxes go to a predetermined amount campaigns can use in elections.

In my actual world, I have never made the argument that political donations should be limited to what grocery baggers are capable of making.
__________________
Posts: 44,312
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:10 AM   #55
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There is nothing simpler than letting people spend their own money as they see fit when it comes to political speech.
Simpler != better.
__________________
Posts: 44,312
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:13 AM   #56
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
Then why do it anonymously? I get the whole "bribery is free speech" argument. I just don't agree with it. If one wants to exercise their free speech rights they have every right to do so without secretly donating millions to shadow organizations that work "indirectly" for political campaigns.

The epitomy of free speech is standing in the town square proclaiming one's beliefs. Anonymous dontations and free speech are not the same thing.
I'm in favor of as much transparency as possible, but if Apple decides to buy some heavy advertising in opposition to a candidate who wants to ban tablet computers, there aren't really any specific contributors to identify.

That said, the decision makers at these public corporations are well known. The topic of this thread identifies Karl Rove as the driving force behind the Crossroads corp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
And since when are corporations people?
Since the concept of the corporation was created. We tax them like people (albeit under a separate tax code). We allow them to enter into contracts like people. We hold them liable like people. It's the essence of the corporate concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief View Post
They're not. So why do those who operate within a corporate entity get to double dip when it comes to free speech and donations? That person has the same rights the rest of us do as citizens. And they can give under the same limitations. Why then should they also get to hide behind the banner of a corporation and give tons more than we could ever give individually?

It tilts the playing field in favor of corporations. And disempowers the average American. That is painfully obvious. All Citizens United accomplished was to define money as speech. And those with the most money have the most speech. One bank account can drown out the voices of millions.
First of all, they can't give more than individuals.

Second, the Superpac concept would go away altogether if we eliminated individual contribution limits.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:17 AM   #57
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
In my ideal world, we go to public financing, which means a fraction of every person's taxes go to a predetermined amount campaigns can use in elections.

In my actual world, I have never made the argument that political donations should be limited to what grocery baggers are capable of making.
You made the argument that the ability of super rich people to out spend others in the political arena is undemocratic. The logical extension of that argument is that it's undemocratic as long as anyone, including grocery baggers, can be out spent. If your argument isn't just an arbitrary attack on the 1%, then let's hear your logical distinction between what you call undemocratic and the grocery bagger extension.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:18 AM   #58
ChiefsCountry ChiefsCountry is online now
MVP
 
ChiefsCountry's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lake of the Ozarks
Casino cash: $8491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
In my ideal world, we go to public financing, which means a fraction of every person's taxes go to a predetermined amount campaigns can use in elections.

In my actual world, I have never made the argument that political donations should be limited to what grocery baggers are capable of making.
Lets use public dollars for canadiates. You liberals are ****ing stupid. Let the idiots blow all the money they want on it.
Posts: 28,375
ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.ChiefsCountry is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:19 AM   #59
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Simpler != better.
I agree, but that seemed to be J Diddy's central argument.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2012, 08:26 AM   #60
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $7857
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You made the argument that the ability of super rich people to out spend others in the political arena is undemocratic. The logical extension of that argument is that it's undemocratic as long as anyone, including grocery baggers, can be out spent. If your argument isn't just an arbitrary attack on the 1%, then let's hear your logical distinction between what you call undemocratic and the grocery bagger extension.
That's a really good question, and it gets back to the heart of the OP's issue.

The 1% can fundamentally raise huge dollar amounts extremely casually that take gargantuan efforts from the rest of the electorate to match, if they can be matched at all.

That puts our government under the 1%'s thumbs. See the OP on this.

(And I'd actually expand that to the top 5%, but let's crawl before we can walk, shall we.)

The same cannot be said for any of the non-rich in this country. If we put the kabash on superPACs, and put maximums on campaign donations to something manageable like $2,000 a person or $4,000 a family, than you can't have a small collection of rich people casually, drastically outraising the rest of the electorate should the electorate fail to put forth some massive effort to keep up.
__________________
Posts: 44,312
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:00 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.