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Old 11-11-2012, 10:51 AM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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**OFFICIAL** Illegal Immigration Reform Thread.

You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:
  • Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
  • A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
  • Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
  • Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
  • The Dream act is part of the total package.
  • Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:
  1. They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
  2. They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards or have already applied for citizenship.
  3. They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
  4. They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
  5. What crime is deportable is TBD.
  6. Size of the fine is TBD.
The Gang of Six bipartisan proposal.

Today a group of powerful U.S. Senators announced they have agreed to a framework on comprehensive immigration reform. The bipartisan group includes Senators Chuck Schumer (D-NY), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Michael Bennett (D-CO), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John McCain (R-AZ), and Jeff Flake (R-AZ). The fact that both parties have agreed to the deal gives it much better prospects for passage.

Path to Citizenship
  • The bill would include a “tough, fair, and practical roadmap to address the status of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.” At the same time, the framework states that this path to citizenship would be “contingent upon our success in securing our borders and addressing visa overstays.”
  • The bill would require those currently living in the United States illegally to register with the government, pass a background check, and settle their debt to society by paying a fine and back taxes. Individuals with a serious criminal background or those who “pose a threat to our national security” would be ineligible and subject to deportation.
  • Current restrictions keeping non-immigrants from accessing “public benefits” would also apply to those who are on the path the citizenship.
  • Once they have passed the background check and paid their “debt to society”, those on “probationary legal status” will be placed at the back of the line for prospective immigrants. These probationary immigrants will then have to “pass another background check, pay taxes, learn English and civics, demonstrate a history of work in the United States, and current employment” in order to apply for lawful permanent residency.
  • Exemptions would be made for minors who did not knowingly violate U.S. immigration laws when they entered the United States and agricultural workers.
Border Security
  • The Bill would increase Border Patrol efforts by “providing them with the latest technology, infrastructure, and personnel needed.” The legislation would increase the number of Border Patrol agents and the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, monitoring the border.
  • The bill would “strengthen prohibitions against racial profiling and inappropriate use of force” by increasing the training of border patrol agents and increasing oversight.
  • The bill would create an “entry-exit system” that would track whether all persons entering the United States on a temporary visa leave the country as required by law.
  • The bill would create a commission of “governors, attorneys general, and community leaders living along the Southwest border to monitor the progress of securing our border and make recommendations.”
Skilled Worker Immigration
  • The bill would develop a “rational legal immigration system” to reduce the backlog of visas which force families to live apart and keep specialized jobs unfilled.
  • The bill would also award a green card to immigrants who receive a PhD or Master’s degree in science, technology, engineering, or math from an American university.
Employment Verification
  • The bill would implement a “fast and reliable method to confirm whether new hires are legally authorized to work in the United States.”
  • The bill would place stiff fines and criminal penalties on employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers.
Low Skilled Workers
  • The bill would allow “more lower-skilled immigrants to come here when our economy is creating jobs, and fewer when our economy is not creating jobs.”
  • Employers who want to hire lower-skilled immigrants would have to demonstrate that they could not successfully recruit an American and that the hiring of the immigrant will not displace American workers

Last edited by BigRedChief; 01-28-2013 at 05:14 PM..
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Why is that such a difficult detail to work out? It wouldn't be hard at all to develope a test.
I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a **** about?
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:14 PM   #47
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a **** about?
Heh! I know what you mean. I studied French for a total of 12 years. In parochial school I learned how to pray in it. Say hello, how are you and good day. In high school a bit more such as conjugating a lot of verbs and learning nouns. Rarely speaking it except for canned language learned rotely. Then in college it was culture, novels and philosophy. I thought I had finally become fluent and pretty much was thinking in the language...until I went to France and didn't know how to ask where the bathroom was. Daily things like that beyond good day, how are you, what's your name then lurching to the grand infinity or the small infinity ( Blaise Pascal's Philosophy).

It was tough getting around and they spoke so fast, but so many spoke English.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:14 PM   #48
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Are you aware that it's a PRESENT and long-standing requirement for ALL naturalized US citizens?
LOL - fine. If the current test is the standard, I don't give a shit about that. It's nothing.


I think the bigger issue is temporary work, not citizenship.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:15 PM   #49
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
You can't even spell develop and you want someone to pass an English test?
Looks like a typo. It happens, spelling Nazi.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It was tough getting around and they spoke so fast, but so many spoke English.
Which is why Europe is so easy. I speak Spanish, so I can read Portuguese fairly well. I've studied it a bit as well. But I have quite a bit of issues with the accent, especially the Brazilian one.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #51
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Rush had a funny joke about amensty. Let them pass amensty law for everybody then don't give the right to vote for I think 15 years. See which party had the balls to pass that.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:19 PM   #52
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Which is why Europe is so easy. I speak Spanish, so I can read Portuguese fairly well. I've studied it a bit as well. But I have quite a bit of issues with the accent, especially the Brazilian one.
It really is easy. Then again, that's because English is the a very common language. Even Greece and Egypt were easy. We have it good in this department.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:21 PM   #53
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It really is easy. Then again, that's because English is the a very common language. Even Greece and Egypt were easy. We have it good in this department.
No kidding. Easy to forget how nice it is being able to walk into a hotel anywhere and know that the front desk will speak English...
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:32 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
You can't even spell develop and you want someone to pass an English test?
Lol
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:33 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
I was in Portugal recently. I know enough Portuguese to get by - meaning I can buy food and get coffee, and tell a taxi where to go. But in any conversation, I break down pretty quickly. Which is fine, because almost all there are very willing to speak English (more so than Spanish, weirdly enough). But at what point should I be allowed in? What level do I need to reach to be accepted?

Languages aren't learned on a "you know it, or you don't". Most of the exams are very theoretical as well. In one of the Spanish exams I've taken, I had to (on the spot) discuss the benefits of public vs. private high school education. Is that really something some guy coming over to work a minimum wage job needs to give a **** about?
Preferably, yes.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:38 AM   #56
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People that say "require English" obviously have never learned a second language ever in there life.
What level of English? What test do you want to go by?


You have to separate people into two categories - those wanting to immigrate here permanently, and those wanting to work here temporarily.
Too bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.

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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 AM   #57
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Too effing bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.
which is why Europe, Belgium for an example require HS students to learn 3 additional languges.... Dutch, German or French and English...those are in addition to Flemish which is their language
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #58
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Secure the border first.

*Deploy returning active duty troops, corps of civil engineers to erect structures, search and destroy tunnels, establish barriers, patrol and control the perimeter.

*Deploy spec ops on drug cartel intel gathering detail for recommendations to future actions. Know who and where they are and have a means in place of acting against them with prejudice should they encroach.

*Establish temp. work permit policy including harsh penalties for violation and the means to enforce them, then establish regulated ports of entry where illegals can apply for temp work permits. This includes illegals currently in the US.

*Develop a policy that allows temp workers to concurrently apply for citizenship in a manner that is equitable to all other citizenship applicants regardless of their nationality.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:52 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
Too bad. If I move to another country you better believe I will learn the language the best I can. Language is a cultural barrier. If they don't learn the language they will never really be part of the American culture as a whole. People are more than welcome and encouraged to maintain their native cultures and customs but they also should be part of aspects of the American culture, especially one shared by the majority of Americans such as language.

The English language is one of the few qualities that everyone who comes here can have in common. This helps remove barriers in daily living, it prevents racism and prejudice, as well as prevent people from segregating themselves from others. How American can an area really be in which people speak nothing but Spanish, don't try to learn English, and have no desire or even need to speak English? (I know this scenario is an extreme and a generalization). The country and the individuals themselves are better off if immigrants speak English well enough to get by in daily living. Unfortunately not all immigrants seem to realize or concern themselves with those two things.
Yep. It seems so basic yet some would trip all over themselves to remove the tie that binds us.
What they think is inclusive results in separation.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:58 AM   #60
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Yep. It seems so basic yet some would trip all over themselves to remove the tie that binds us.
What they think is inclusive results in separation.
I agree. It frustrates the living shit out of me.
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