**OFFICIAL** Illegal Immigration Reform Thread.

[BigRedChief]

You know its coming. As soon as the fiscal cliff is finished, illegal immigration is next.

Sen. Graham and Sen. Shumar have already resumed their illegal immigration talks from two years ago. Both were on the sunday shows talking about the plan. Both are seeing a possible huge bi-partisan deal is now possible based on their earlier work form two years ago.

Main points of the deal:

• Lock down the border. Spend whatever money and political will to truly stop the flow of people over our borders.
• A nationwide verification of employment. The idea is to come up with some kind of non forgeable document. A E-Verify for immigrants.
• Increase legal immigration, especially for scientists, engineers and other fields that benefit America or workers are in short supply, i.e. workers who pick our produce in the fields.
• Stiff and severe penalties for businesses that hire illegals after the "E-Verify type" system is in place.
• The Dream act is part of the total package.
• Every illegal in the country is possible allowed to stay legally in the country. The conditions are:

1. They must enter into that "E-Verify type" system.
2. They are allowed to apply for citizenship but they go to the back of the line of people that already have green cards or have already applied for citizenship.
3. They must pay a fine for entering the country illegally.
4. They are allowed to stay as long until their citizenship paperwork is finalized, as long as they commit no crimes and pay all taxes that everyone else pays. Failure to so that = immediate deportation.
5. What crime is deportable is TBD.
6. Size of the fine is TBD.

The Gang of Six bipartisan proposal.

Today a group of powerful U.S. Senators announced they have agreed to a framework on comprehensive immigration reform. The bipartisan group includes Senators Chuck Schumer (D-NY), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Michael Bennett (D-CO), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John McCain (R-AZ), and Jeff Flake (R-AZ). The fact that both parties have agreed to the deal gives it much better prospects for passage.

Path to Citizenship

• The bill would include a “tough, fair, and practical roadmap to address the status of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.” At the same time, the framework states that this path to citizenship would be “contingent upon our success in securing our borders and addressing visa overstays.”
• The bill would require those currently living in the United States illegally to register with the government, pass a background check, and settle their debt to society by paying a fine and back taxes. Individuals with a serious criminal background or those who “pose a threat to our national security” would be ineligible and subject to deportation.
• Current restrictions keeping non-immigrants from accessing “public benefits” would also apply to those who are on the path the citizenship.
• Once they have passed the background check and paid their “debt to society”, those on “probationary legal status” will be placed at the back of the line for prospective immigrants. These probationary immigrants will then have to “pass another background check, pay taxes, learn English and civics, demonstrate a history of work in the United States, and current employment” in order to apply for lawful permanent residency.
• Exemptions would be made for minors who did not knowingly violate U.S. immigration laws when they entered the United States and agricultural workers.

Border Security

• The Bill would increase Border Patrol efforts by “providing them with the latest technology, infrastructure, and personnel needed.” The legislation would increase the number of Border Patrol agents and the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, monitoring the border.
• The bill would “strengthen prohibitions against racial profiling and inappropriate use of force” by increasing the training of border patrol agents and increasing oversight.
• The bill would create an “entry-exit system” that would track whether all persons entering the United States on a temporary visa leave the country as required by law.
• The bill would create a commission of “governors, attorneys general, and community leaders living along the Southwest border to monitor the progress of securing our border and make recommendations.”

Skilled Worker Immigration

• The bill would develop a “rational legal immigration system” to reduce the backlog of visas which force families to live apart and keep specialized jobs unfilled.
• The bill would also award a green card to immigrants who receive a PhD or Master’s degree in science, technology, engineering, or math from an American university.

Employment Verification

• The bill would implement a “fast and reliable method to confirm whether new hires are legally authorized to work in the United States.”
• The bill would place stiff fines and criminal penalties on employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers.

Low Skilled Workers

• The bill would allow “more lower-skilled immigrants to come here when our economy is creating jobs, and fewer when our economy is not creating jobs.”
• Employers who want to hire lower-skilled immigrants would have to demonstrate that they could not successfully recruit an American and that the hiring of the immigrant will not displace American workers

[Detoxing]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

For the illegals who don't want to assimilate its the land of where there is plenty of grass to cut and leaves to be blown. There just seems to be no desire to do better for themselves for many of them, which part of that is because of the inability to speak the language.

From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

[La literatura]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

Sounds like a bunch of bums. (Unlike my great grandparents from Luxembourg who only spoke German. They were great).

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Literature

Okay, so yes, there are immigrants in Iowa. Good.

You look like a fool here kid, just stop.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Literature

I'm sure most immigrants try to learn a passable amount, if not a conversational amount, of the English language. It's hard to do when you're working and taking care of people, though.

I assure you that this is both true and not true depending on where you live and your definition of "most."

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

I see quite a bit of younger ones that haven't. I don't know if because they don't want to, though. When you hire a crew for a construction job in Texas you get the white guy who comes out first to sell the deal. Then you get the Mexican crew. The one guy that speaks English seems like he automatically becomes the on site foreman. If you ask any of the other guys a question (most of the time) they shrug and go, "I don't know. I don't know," and go get the guy that speaks English. It's rare that you ask one of the other guys something and they speak English. And they're not generally old.
Or they're just pretending not to know because they're scared to say anything about the job,

[La literatura]

Originally Posted by vailpass

You look like a fool here kid, just stop.

Are the immigrants in Iowa a different flavor than the immigrants in Arizona? Share your practical wisdom with us. You're obviously very in touch with the immigrant crowd. I'm just in a classroom all day.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Literature

Are the immigrants in Iowa a different flavor than the immigrants in Arizona? Share your practical wisdom with us. You're obviously very in touch with the immigrant crowd. I'm just in a classroom all day.

Yes, less chipotle.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Depends on the person.

When i talk to these people(obviously in my age group) they instantly go in defense mode about their parents.

The most common response i get is "I shouldn't have to abandon my culture", in which case i have to explain that you can keep your culture while still integrating into ours.

Exactly! Many feel that just by assimilating to something like language in which they can instantly have something in common with everyone else here, that this means somehow they are abandoning their culture. It is almost like some of them have this idea that even though they are illegal, other people should accomodate them so as to not offend their culture. Where did they get this sense of entitlement?

Originally Posted by Detoxing

From my experience, the ones who fail to assimilate are the elderly, or those past their prime. They are set in their old ways and fail to pick up the language.

As I mentioned, I really think it depends on where you live and that given community. If they are able to find other like minded individuals and areas in which they can be free to not assimilate, they will not feel the pressure or desire to do so.

[Detoxing]

Originally Posted by Donger

Okay. So, if that's the case, how can you claim that I am wrong about them not wanting to assimilate?

And I don't understand the parent part.

The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

Huh, interesting.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

That is a good point. Immigrants that want to come here and assimilate do so because it is the land of opportunity and you can try to make yourself something out of nothing. For the illegals who don't want to assimilate its the land of where there is plenty of grass to cut and leaves to be blown. There just seems to be no desire to do better for themselves for many of them, which part of that is because of the inability to speak the language.

If some of them truely and honestly enjoys that work that is terrific and more power to them for doing what they want. I know there are days when I would rather be doing that. That being said, its a shame they don't pay taxes into the system the way any American born person would if they did the same work. I guess I could be wrong, but I don't imagine companies that hire illegal immigrants have any way of imposing any kind of taxes or contributing money to the local schools that are educating the illegal children. I feel like I am all over the place.

They're really no different than native-born Americans in that respect. There are plenty of Americans who have no ambition to chase the American dream but instead settle in to dead-end jobs and just get by. There's nothing wrong with this until they start voting to raise taxes on people who make more than they do and to expand benefits that flow into their own pockets. Unfortunately, we have an epidemic of that going on right now and plenty of demagogues in politics to encourage it.

I agree completely with your point about assimilation, btw. I think potential legal immigrants should have to show a propensity to assimilate before they're accepted (e.g. learn English in your homeland and then apply to come here). Obviously, this is a separate issue from the issue of what we do with the millions of illegals who are already here.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

The youth are already well integrated. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference with a lot of them, as they speak perfect english and were raised by this country. Culturally, they are American, Legaly they are not. When they tell me "they don't want to abandon their culture", it's more about them feeling offended, as if i'm asking them to stop being Mexican.

The Problem is with their parents.

So when i talk about these sensitive subjects with them, their initial reaction to every question isn't about how it will affect them, but rather how it'll affect their parents.

A lot of this comes from the fact that they come from a place where you don't grow up in much contact with other cultures and having to learn to accept them. Therefore, they aren't adept at doing this and cannot see how it is possible to accept other cultures while maintaining your own.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by patteeu

I agree completely with your point about assimilation, btw. I think potential legal immigrants should have to show a propensity to assimilate before they're accepted (e.g. learn English in your homeland and then apply to come here). Obviously, this is a separate issue from the issue of what we do with the millions of illegals who are already here.

Actually I think that a majority of legal immigrants now, do in fact try to learn English before they come. For one the process is extremely long so they have time. Also, if they are willing to go through the process and hoops to come here legally they are much more aware of what skills they will need to be successful here, of which learning the language is a major factor. They also feel a greater sense of pride after they get here because it was a struggle for them and they are far more appreciative of what they had to do. This is a far cry from the people who wake up one day and decide that in a week or two they are hopping a fence and coming here illegally.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

Actually I think that a majority of legal immigrants now, do in fact try to learn English before they come. For one the process is extremely long so they have time. Also, if they are willing to go through the process and hoops to come here legally they are much more aware of what skills they will need to be successful here, of which learning the language is a major factor. They also feel a greater sense of pride after they get here because it was a struggle for them and they are far more appreciative of what they had to do. This is a far cry from the people who wake up one day and decide that in a week or two they are hopping a fence and coming here illegally.

That's good to hear.

[Detoxing]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

A lot of this comes from the fact that they come from a place where you don't grow up in much contact with other cultures and having to learn to accept them. Therefore, they aren't adept at doing this and cannot see how it is possible to accept other cultures while maintaining your own.

Mmmm.....Not in my opinion. I think it's a bit different than that. A lot of you know when it comes to this subject, i speak in the defense of a handful that i know. Admittedly, these aren't your typical illegals, and i've told the stories of a few of them to this board already.

One is a very pretty young woman (a bit younger than myself) who has been in this country since she was less than a year old. She is what the DREAM act is built for. Perfect student, model citizen, 100% American in every way but her documentation.

Another is a a young man around my age who is incredibly technically savvy. He was brought here from the Philippines when he was a small boy along with his sister and mother. His mother died, he was put in a group home, where i met him.

I know another young lady whom i havent talked about, and most recently i learned that a 14 y/o boy i know is also Illegal.

The 14 y/o saddens me the most, because if he doesn't get a reasonable pathway to citizenship, his life will basically come to a halt when he turns 18 and graduates HS.

With all that said, when i talk to some of them about Immigration reform, they get defensive. Even though they are well integrated, they get defensive over their family. They feel attacked. They know they aren't wanted here in the only place they know as home, so they already feel threatened and pissed about the subject. So when i start telling them that their parents need to get with the program, they get upset in defense of their parents.

Like I said, their parents are the problem, and I'm not sure that there is a solution that would ever make everyone happy.