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Old 10-01-2012, 07:43 AM  
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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Do you want to see Miguel Cabrera win MLBs Triple Crown?

Could be the first Triple Crown since 1967


Ironically, the Royals will have a say in the race, since he plays against them the last 3 games.

Discuss....


http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/spo...race-heats-up/



Miguel Cabrera is slowly inching towards achieving the first Triple Crown since 1967.

With a line drive home run in the eighth inning against Minnesota on Saturday night, Cabrera moved into a tie with Texas star Josh Hamilton for the AL lead.

Cabrera's blast in the eighth inning off Casey Fien was his 43rd home run for the year. He also leads the AL in batting average (.327) and RBIs (136) as he looks to become the first player since 1967 to lead the league in all three categories.

"It's unbelievable what he's done this year," pitcher Justin Verlander said, the reigning AL MVP who was wearing a dark blue t-shirt with the message "Keep the MVP in the D" and Cabrera's name on the front.

"It's amazing to me how he keeps getting better. He's already the best hitter in the game and he keeps taking it to another level."

While it was Cabrera and his home run that gave the Tigers the five-run cushion they would end up needing in a 6-4 victory over the Twins that gave them a two-game lead in the AL Central, the Triple Crown hopeful deferred the attention away from himself.


It's unbelievable what he's done this year.- Justin Verlander


"I want to talk about the team," Cabrera said respectfully. "There's too many distractions right now and been talking too much about triple crowns. I pull too much attention. I don't want to do that. I want to go out there and play my game."

Cabrera entered the day leading Joe Mauer by five points in the batting race, Hamilton by eight in the RBI race, but trailing Hamilton by one in homers.

So will he be watching Hamilton down the stretch?

"I'll let you guys keep Hamilton in your eyes," Cabrera said. "I'll go to the hotel and get some breakfast tomorrow and try to win tomorrow."

The bigger prize, of course, is the division title. Neither the Tigers nor the Sox will qualify for one of two wild cards in the American League, so their only way in is through the division door.

"The last couple weeks, there's too much attention right now," Cabrera said of the triple crown. "I don't like too much of that stuff. But it's always good. You've got to feel comfortable with that. You've got to feel positive and be ready to play."
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:46 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
Gotcha.

As I mentioned earlier, I trust offensive WAR by itself (Total WAR, with defensive value thrown in, gets silly). Trout does lead in that category. I'm fine with either guy but would vote for Trout, personally. Not a slam dunk either way.

Here's a counter-question, though: How unprecedented is Cabrera's line?
It isn't.

So if neither of them are 'unprecedented', you just look to the raw numbers and (IMO) also give credit for the 'intangibles'. I know you don't like the playoff thing, but the fact is that for the last 2 months of the year when both teams were extremely similarly situated, Cabrera treated the AL like it was AA whereas Trout regressed. As a result, Cabrera's team is in the playoffs. Now I'm not the real crusty old guy that says you can't win the MVP if your team isn't in the playoffs, but by God it should count. It should especially count when your team is in the playoffs directly because you played so well. Had Trout played as well down the stretch as Cabrera did, the Halos would still be playing ball. To me that matters a great deal.

And I do think the triple crown is significant. I disagree that it's dispositive but it should again carry weight. When compared to his peers in 3 very important categories (yes, RBI and AVG remain important categories for a 3 or 4 hitter, stats guys can eat me on that front), he was the best the league had to offer.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #182
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I think we've gotten to the point where we're trying too hard to be smart here. I 100% agree Cabrera's season is not unprecedented statistically... but he still bested all of his peers in the Triple Crown categories. Each season is it's own beast, it is still a great accomplishment. You can't take it away from him.

Although I'm not necessarily a for picking the MVP from playoff teams... Cabrera did lead his team to the playoffs, that should count for something. He hit .337 with 26 HR's, 1.074 OPS in the 2nd half of the season, great numbers... including 10 HR's in September.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:43 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
It isn't.

So if neither of them are 'unprecedented', you just look to the raw numbers and (IMO) also give credit for the 'intangibles'. I know you don't like the playoff thing, but the fact is that for the last 2 months of the year when both teams were extremely similarly situated, Cabrera treated the AL like it was AA whereas Trout regressed. As a result, Cabrera's team is in the playoffs. Now I'm not the real crusty old guy that says you can't win the MVP if your team isn't in the playoffs, but by God it should count. It should especially count when your team is in the playoffs directly because you played so well. Had Trout played as well down the stretch as Cabrera did, the Halos would still be playing ball. To me that matters a great deal.

And I do think the triple crown is significant. I disagree that it's dispositive but it should again carry weight. When compared to his peers in 3 very important categories (yes, RBI and AVG remain important categories for a 3 or 4 hitter, stats guys can eat me on that front), he was the best the league had to offer.
Even if I was going to bring into account the whole "they made the playoffs" factor, there's still the fact the Angels had a better record during the final two months of the season. And that though his raw offensive numbers dropped from otherworldy to merely "All-Star" level in August and September, Trout was brilliant for them over the course of the season and they had the best record in baseball with Trout on the major league roster. And that even when he's only hitting at an All-Star level, Trout is a Gold Glove-caliber defender in CF every night, which also helps his team win.

The only reason the Tigers are in the playoffs is that they're in the Central. That's it. That really takes away any impact "look how he led his team home" would have on me.

The Triple Crown is an awesome achievement. No disputing that, at all. No disputing that Cabrera is a worthy candidate.

I think all the discussion about this - and all the logical, reasoned and supported discussion on both sides - is a great indication of just how close these two guys are.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:48 PM   #184
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Here is how the MVP ballot actually reads. Notice the last sentence in the first paragraph:

"Dear Voter:

There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.

2. Number of games played.

3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.

4. Former winners are eligible.

5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.

Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters."
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:57 PM   #185
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i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:06 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
Quote:
Now I'm not the real crusty old guy that says you can't win the MVP if your team isn't in the playoffs
She's really bringing the heat in this thread...
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:19 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
And yet not as good as Matt Kemp's 2011 season - the same Matt Kemp that didn't win the MVP last year.

But that's right, he only scored 115 runs and stole 40 bases when he was hitting 1/3 more HRs and driving in 50% more runs.

It was a great season - but a season very similar to it happens every other year or so.
Kemp may have had a fantastic offensive season in 2011, but he doesn't add anywhere close to the value that Trout does defensively in CF. They are miles apart in what they bring to the table as baseball players overall.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
My point is that the season is nowhere near unprecedented. It was bested last season by Kemp.

And I also made a mistake in taking the rest of that claim by KC Connection at face value - the idea that Trout's season was never bested by Junior.

Look at Griffey's 1997 season:

125 R, 56HR, 147 RBI, 15 steals and an OPS of 1.028 - That season crushes the season that Trout put up this year. Trout only has an appreciable edge in steals.

Yet WAR has Trout as having a better season this year than Griffey did in 1997. Why? Because WAR is not dispositive of anything and can be wrong just as easily as RBI can. WAR should be looked at as just another tool, not the tool that answers all questions.

Leave it to the super stats crowd to actually try to claim that Trouts season was better than Griffeys 96, 97, 98 or even 93. Griffey did get the MVP in 97, but not the other 3 years.
So WAR is wrong in this case because Trout couldn't possibly have been worth more than Griffey in those seasons? Because Ken Griffey Jr. is some kind of legend in the game? Because it's "just another tool?" Not really seeing an argument here...just disbelief.

Trout's wRC+ in 2012 (175), which adjusts to both the league and ballpark, was better than any season Griffey ever had in his career (Ken's great 1993 came the closest at 167 wRC+). The defensive value that Trout provided (at least according to UZR) was also right up there with Griffey's best seasons.

I'm just not understanding the attempt to play this Trout season off as if it's somehow common. It isn't. This combination of super elite offense, super elite defense, and super elite baserunning over a full season is very rare. Maybe even more rare than the winning the collection of Triple Crown stats and certainly more impressive.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:40 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
Here's a counter-question, though: How unprecedented is Cabrera's line?
Cabrera put up better offensive seasons in 2010 and 2011 than he did this season. Jose Bautista put up a significantly better season just last year. In short, it's not unprecedented at all. It's very good, but there's nothing overly remarkable about it like Trout's phenomenal season.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
Well it seems as if thats the main sticking point to discredit Trout, other than triple Crown, which isnt an automatic MVP either, art least not historically.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:36 AM   #191
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Wow, Cabrera won the MVP over Trout yesterday and not a peep.....Chiefsplanet is slipping....




http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_det&c_id=mlb
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:51 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 View Post
Wow, Cabrera won the MVP over Trout yesterday and not a peep.....Chiefsplanet is slipping....




http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_det&c_id=mlb
I think we had pretty much all the conversation about this that was possible the first time....

But I will point out that only Cabrera's line is Triple-Crown winning only two times in the past 60 years.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:58 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
I think we had pretty much all the conversation about this that was possible the first time....

But I will point out that only Cabrera's line is Triple-Crown winning only two times in the past 60 years.
The Triple Crown is unique and special....but i will say this....is it overrated a little bit?

What if one guy batted .310 45HRs and 125 RBIs one season and won the Triple Crown


The next year a guy bats .320 with 46 Hrs and 130 RBIs and loses the triple crown because other players had a better average or more HRs that year.....is his season any less over all? Alot of it is just luck isnt it?
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Matt once made a very nice play in Seattle where he spun away from a pass rusher and hit Bowe off his back foot for a first down.

One of the best plays Matt has ever made.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:04 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 View Post
The Triple Crown is unique and special....but i will say this....is it overrated a little bit?

What if one guy batted .310 45HRs and 125 RBIs one season and won the Triple Crown


The next year a guy bats .320 with 46 Hrs and 130 RBIs and loses the triple crown because other players had a better average or more HRs that year.....is his season any less over all? Alot of it is just luck isnt it?
I would agree with that.

The average and home run totals Cabrera put up this season, while studly, are not league-leading totals most seasons.

I won't really complain about Cabrera winning. It's not like he's unworthy. I just think Trout was better.
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