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Old 11-13-2012, 10:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:03 AM   #121
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
You are unaware that there are NO Israelis settlements in Gaza now?
So, yes, you've turned a blind eye to it.

Again, this isn't happening in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
They both exist.
Liberal usage of the word "exist," there.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:07 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
So, yes, you've turned a blind eye to it.

Again, this isn't happening in a vacuum.
You weren't aware that there are no Israelis settlements in Gaza now because they were removed in yet another attempt at peace by Israel, which of course didn't work? Wow.

I personally don't agree with expanding settlements, but then again, the Palestinians and Hamas clearly don't give a shit if Israel stops and even removes existing ones, as demonstrated above.

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Liberal usage of the word "exist," there.
I meant it in a literal sense, yes. Israelis exist and "Palestinians" exist. Neither are going to un-exist. Not unlike Americans and illegal immigrants.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:12 AM   #123
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Please post link where Israel has refused to recognize their existence.



It is however a fact palestinians are taught to hate jews, and refuse to recognize their existence. Do you even acknowledge this hatred for jews as they are taught in the hadith and from the ones preaching them this hatred?

Or are you too busy enjoying your boat ride down the deNile river?
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:23 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. A two-state solution means they end up out of power eventually.

A constant state of conflict is needed to keep them in power.
So israel is supposed to play nice and proportional with a group like that?

They need to be obliterated, even if the cost is high... your post helps prove this.

I agree though about israel often pushing its advantage by expanding settlements, that has to stop, they have enough of the pie.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:40 AM   #125
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:05 AM   #126
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Let us not forget Hamas recruit and train suicide bombers in Palestine - Who Hamas sends to the Middle East and Southeast Asia countries to detonate themselves on crowded platforms.

And let us not forget, the IRA taught their IED techniques (roadside bomb) to the Palestine Liberation Organization and the knowledge spread to Iraq and other countries.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:10 AM   #127
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Weasle words from the weak leader:

BANGKOK (AP) — President Barack Obama said Sunday an incursion by Israel’s forces into the Gaza Strip could only deepen its death toll, cautioning against an escalation even as he defended the Jewish state’s right to defend itself. Obama also warned Palestinians the crisis could crush peace hopes for years.

“Israel has every right to expect that it does not have missiles fired into its territory,” Obama said at the start of a three-nation tour in Asia.

“If that can be accomplished without a ramping up of military activity in Gaza, that’s preferable,” he said. “It’s not just preferable for the people of Gaza. It’s also preferable for Israelis, because if Israeli troops are in Gaza, they’re much more at risk of incurring fatalities or being wounded.”

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...11-18-10-15-38


Translation...i have nobodys back and will condem Israel for bullying these poor folks.

From the hamas covenent:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:17 AM   #128
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Well, the Palestinian civilians shouldn't have voted in Hamas. They chose extremism and terrorists to be their leaders in Gaza.
Right.

Not sure how that helps right now, but right.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:20 AM   #129
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I personally don't agree with expanding settlements, but then again, the Palestinians and Hamas clearly don't give a shit if Israel stops and even removes existing ones, as demonstrated above.
Palestinians worry about getting their own, fairly divided state that honors history and religion.

Because you've stopped expanding in one area isn't that much of an olive branch when you expand in another area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I meant it in a literal sense, yes. Israelis exist and "Palestinians" exist. Neither are going to un-exist.
You're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:22 AM   #130
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
So israel is supposed to play nice and proportional with a group like that?

They need to be obliterated, even if the cost is high... your post helps prove this.

I agree though about israel often pushing its advantage by expanding settlements, that has to stop, they have enough of the pie.
Then that's your stance. Gaza needs to be obliterated. That's on you.

My position is that Israel has attempted these sorts of ground invasions before with the stated goals of punishing Hamas and taking out their capability for these kinds of assaults.

Guess how that worked out.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:26 AM   #131
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Reading through this I cannot find anyplace where peaceful coexistance is mentioned....

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

It is really rather interesting to see what Hamas stands for and helps understand why Israel must at some point deal with Gaza.

Strategically, it is good to eliminate the threat from Gaza assuming they have to deal with the greater threat from Iran and Syria
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:28 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Then that's your stance. Gaza needs to be obliterated. That's on you.

My position is that Israel has attempted these sorts of ground invasions before with the stated goals of punishing Hamas and taking out their capability for these kinds of assaults.

Guess how that worked out.
Hamas is the issue not the people who could oppose them in Gaza. But Hamas killed thousands of those people to gain power.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:31 AM   #133
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Right.

Not sure how that helps right now, but right.
It doesn't help at all, obviously.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:33 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Palestinians worry about getting their own, fairly divided state that honors history and religion.

Because you've stopped expanding in one area isn't that much of an olive branch when you expand in another area.
Tell me, how does it compare to the olive branch(es) offered by the "Palestinians" or Hamas?

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You're making this conversation harder than it needs to be.
Okay.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:34 AM   #135
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It doesn't help at all, obviously.
This is productive!
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