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Old 11-19-2012, 12:36 PM  
tooge tooge is offline
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need advice with family issue

Ok, so about 4 weeks ago, I get a call from my mom. she's sobbing as she tells me her fiance (my dad passed 4 years ago) has been verbally abusing her and shoving her and she has decided to have a restraining order and have him removed from the house. I applaud her, tell her I'm there for her, call him and let him know that I am aware of what has been going on, and as far as I'm concerned, he is out permenantly. My mother on the other hand, said things like "if he gets therapy and goes to AA, maybe I'll start by dating him again". She told me that he told her that my father never loved her or us kids. That's when it became personal for me. So I call jackass up, ask if all this is true, he beats around the bush, but eventually fesses up under the guise of too much drinking and some anger management issues. He promises he will get help but just loves my mom. I tell him I'm only 2.5 hours away and wont hesitate to come up there to make sure she is OK. I even let him know, I'm not afraid of a few nights in jail.

So, yesterday, I get home from a weeklong vacation. I call my brother, who my family will be staying with when we go up for Thanksgiving. Through casual conversation, I find out that jackass is back in my mothers house, and plans on being there for Thanksgiving.

I call my mother, she says he's trying very hard and if he screws up, he is out. He has been to a counselor once since this, and no AA meetings or anygthing like that, though he is reportedly on "medication" now.

I told my mother that I'm not comfortable taking my children up there, and since I wasn't the one that made the situation what it is, then perhaps he could leave the house for the day while we are there. She refused, so I said **** it then, we aren't coming. She gets all pissy and tells me all the things she did for me as a mother and I should come up for her. I'm not going on principal, not to mention, I'd be uncomfortable and might even get in the guys face. Am I doing the right thing? Should I just eat my principles, and go and be a good little son and sit there and act nice? What say you Dr. CP?
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
She said that he shoved her, let's not limit this to just the part about the "verbal" abuse.

You obviously have a problem with reading.

Late this afternoon, momowanian stopped by my office. I had been reading this thread when she stopped in, and as she got back into the car with my dad, who treats her well I pondered this situation.

I can say with pretty good confidence that once my mother told me that she had been shoved and was crying....I would have reacted in a manner some would consider poorly or barbaric.


Your situation pisses me off for you...what an asshole. he deserves whatever life gives him.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:30 PM   #137
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To get into a pissing match about making her choose between her child/grandchildren and her fiance after she's trusted you and shown so much good will... I think that's pretty rotten man. I understand what you might be feeling, and don't blame you for wanting to get rid of the guy. But emotional gambits aren't the appropriate way to go about doing that. Go be a family, and enjoy your mom's company. She sounds like an awesome lady.
Simply outstanding and insightful.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:52 PM   #138
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I think you are doing the right thing by not going as well. Just because you don't go to a Thanksgiving dinner doesn't mean that you are abandoning your mother. You can still have a relationship with her but within the boundaries you set that don't allow the abusive BF to be a part of it. Explain to her that you don't feel comfortable with him and do not want to have your family around him. Make sure to let her know it in no way reflects your family's view on her. You wish to have her in your family's life just as much as she always has been. You and her simply have a different view on the BF and that is ok. She won't change your mind and you won't change hers as you are both adults.

If she gives you an ultimatum(which it seems is highly unlikely) that you either accept the BF or get out of her life, tell her you are sorry she is making such a harsh decision but you can not condone his behavior or subject your family to the possibility of being around it. Let her know you love her and your door is always open if she needs you. If that does happen, remember that you are not the one who closed the door on the relationship. You provided options and she refused them.

I wish you well my friend! I've got plenty of "family history" we'll call it that I can relate to your thoughts. Enjoy your Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:54 PM   #139
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:38 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
And enable her?

I don't agree.
This

You mom is a classic co-dependent who is dating an alcoholic who really thinks he doesn't have a problem and is just going through the motions right now because the heat is on. Your mom has cleaned up a lot of this guy's messes already I'm guessing and now she expects you to go along as well. But your boundary setting has exposed her selfish insecurity of having a man at all cost So much so that she verbally abuses her own kids when they disagree with her(e.g. YOU) Co-dependency from the family and friends of the addict involved can be sooooooooo sick at times.

Stay the course if you want your Mom to truly see her behavior for what it is and eventually get better. It will get ugly and will take time, but you will have to let her lie in her own messy bed she has created in order for her to realize for herself that she actually needs to change and not others . There are no guarantees and she may not get better. It will be tempting at times to give in and take care of her by not sticking to your boundaries because it is very difficult as a son not to step in and take care of MOM.

But you see, the co-dependent hates healthy boundaries and literally takes on the same 'personality of manipulation' just like the addict but without physically taking drugs/alcohol. The co-dependent is addicted to feeling responsible for everyone's actions and especially their emotional well being. She is trying to get you to feel responsible for her feelings while she already feels responsible for her alcoholic BF's feelings. And the endless cycle of co-dependent dysfunction just keeps metastasizing from one family generation to the next family generation.

Did your father or grandfather have drinking problems ?? Because this stuff is sooooo generational.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:43 PM   #141
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So what happens when Mr. Fiance' decides to down a couple and his less than pleasing side comes out. Isn't that going to be a pleasant sight for his kids to see? Some strange guy getting loud and obnoxious and possibly pushing around their grandma? Nah....that won't scar the kids in any way.

Some of the responders here might be right....nothing could happen and all will be well and good. But what happens if he does drink, gets abusive and causes a scene?
You explain to your own kids that this is not appropriate behavior, and you tell your mom that you are leaving and would like for her to come with you. She will, of course, and that relationship will be over. As it probably should already be. But it won't end because of your own stubborn 'tough love' principles. And even if it did, is that really why you want your mom to end a relationship? Because you forced her to, or never see you again? Make no mistake, you are the one handing down the ultimatums.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:08 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
This

You mom is a classic co-dependent who is dating an alcoholic who really thinks he doesn't have a problem and is just going through the motions right now because the heat is on. Your mom has cleaned up a lot of this guy's messes already I'm guessing and now she expects you to go along as well. But your boundary setting has exposed her selfish insecurity of having a man at all cost So much so that she verbally abuses her own kids when they disagree with her(e.g. YOU) Co-dependency from the family and friends of the addict involved can be sooooooooo sick at times.

Stay the course if you want your Mom to truly see her behavior for what it is and eventually get better. It will get ugly and will take time, but you will have to let her lie in her own messy bed she has created in order for her to realize for herself that she actually needs to change and not others . There are no guarantees and she may not get better. It will be tempting at times to give in and take care of her by not sticking to your boundaries because it is very difficult as a son not to step in and take care of MOM.

But you see, the co-dependent hates healthy boundaries and literally takes on the same 'personality of manipulation' just like the addict but without physically taking drugs/alcohol. The co-dependent is addicted to feeling responsible for everyone's actions and especially their emotional well being. She is trying to get you to feel responsible for her feelings while she already feels responsible for her alcoholic BF's feelings. And the endless cycle of co-dependent dysfunction just keeps metastasizing from one family generation to the next family generation.

Did your father or grandfather have drinking problems ?? Because this stuff is sooooo generational.
Another outstanding post.

The guilt, shame, and manipulation tactic she used to try to conjole Tooge into attending the Thanksgiving dinner is classic codependent.

Her late husband may have 'treated her like a queen' but these behaviors don't just manifest overnight. Not to mention, that if she had healthy boundaries she would see red flags in the relationship and would have left way before it escalated into abusive. People who stay in these relationships have been conditioned by some sort of previous experience to them. There is a certain 'comfort level' which doesn't exist with people who have not be predisposed to stay in an abusive relationship. Maybe her own parents had this type of relationship.

Healthy people, even if incredibly lonely, don't stay in abusive relationships, period.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #143
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Her late husband may have 'treated her like a queen' but these behaviors don't just manifest overnight. Not to mention, that if she had healthy boundaries she would see red flags in the relationship and would have left way before it escalated into abusive. People who stay in these relationships have been conditioned by some sort of previous experience to them. There is a certain 'comfort level' which doesn't exist with people who have not be predisposed to stay in an abusive relationship. Maybe her own parents had this type of relationship.

Healthy people, even if incredibly lonely, don't stay in abusive relationships, period.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:18 PM   #144
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:20 PM   #145
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Ok, so about 4 weeks ago, I get a call from my mom. she's sobbing as she tells me her fiance (my dad passed 4 years ago) has been verbally abusing her and shoving her and she has decided to have a restraining order and have him removed from the house. I applaud her, tell her I'm there for her, call him and let him know that I am aware of what has been going on, and as far as I'm concerned, he is out permenantly. My mother on the other hand, said things like "if he gets therapy and goes to AA, maybe I'll start by dating him again". She told me that he told her that my father never loved her or us kids. That's when it became personal for me. So I call jackass up, ask if all this is true, he beats around the bush, but eventually fesses up under the guise of too much drinking and some anger management issues. He promises he will get help but just loves my mom. I tell him I'm only 2.5 hours away and wont hesitate to come up there to make sure she is OK. I even let him know, I'm not afraid of a few nights in jail.

So, yesterday, I get home from a weeklong vacation. I call my brother, who my family will be staying with when we go up for Thanksgiving. Through casual conversation, I find out that jackass is back in my mothers house, and plans on being there for Thanksgiving.

I call my mother, she says he's trying very hard and if he screws up, he is out. He has been to a counselor once since this, and no AA meetings or anygthing like that, though he is reportedly on "medication" now.

I told my mother that I'm not comfortable taking my children up there, and since I wasn't the one that made the situation what it is, then perhaps he could leave the house for the day while we are there. She refused, so I said **** it then, we aren't coming. She gets all pissy and tells me all the things she did for me as a mother and I should come up for her. I'm not going on principal, not to mention, I'd be uncomfortable and might even get in the guys face. Am I doing the right thing? Should I just eat my principles, and go and be a good little son and sit there and act nice? What say you Dr. CP?
Sounds like you're the only one doing the right thing. However, if you do something that gets your ass thrown in jail, that a pretty good indication that you've become part of the problem.

You have kids, dude. No jail.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:28 PM   #146
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Not sure my bro knows as much as I do. He's the youngest and not as close to mom as I am. She told me everything, he probably knows only surface issues. And yes, my father was a great man. treated my mother like a queen.


It might be a good idea to get your brother up to speed on what's going on. He lives closer and is in a better potion to keep an eye onn things. He needs to hear, from you, why you aren't going to be at Thanksgiving dinner. Most importantly, she is his mother too and has a right to know.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:32 PM   #147
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:23 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
This

You mom is a classic co-dependent who is dating an alcoholic who really thinks he doesn't have a problem and is just going through the motions right now because the heat is on. Your mom has cleaned up a lot of this guy's messes already I'm guessing and now she expects you to go along as well. But your boundary setting has exposed her selfish insecurity of having a man at all cost So much so that she verbally abuses her own kids when they disagree with her(e.g. YOU) Co-dependency from the family and friends of the addict involved can be sooooooooo sick at times.

Stay the course if you want your Mom to truly see her behavior for what it is and eventually get better. It will get ugly and will take time, but you will have to let her lie in her own messy bed she has created in order for her to realize for herself that she actually needs to change and not others . There are no guarantees and she may not get better. It will be tempting at times to give in and take care of her by not sticking to your boundaries because it is very difficult as a son not to step in and take care of MOM.

But you see, the co-dependent hates healthy boundaries and literally takes on the same 'personality of manipulation' just like the addict but without physically taking drugs/alcohol. The co-dependent is addicted to feeling responsible for everyone's actions and especially their emotional well being. She is trying to get you to feel responsible for her feelings while she already feels responsible for her alcoholic BF's feelings. And the endless cycle of co-dependent dysfunction just keeps metastasizing from one family generation to the next family generation.

Did your father or grandfather have drinking problems ?? Because this stuff is sooooo generational.
This guy must be a real "shrink". I'd take advice from this guy anytime the way he's able to break down personalities and behaviors.

Excellent post!
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:16 AM   #149
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Oh OK. I'm glad you got the validation you needed to stop running away. You seem much more confident with this supposed crowd at your back. It's a moot point now though so it's a little late for you to get the courage to give me a straight answer to my simple question. I guess that means we're done here unless you can think of something else.
I didn't need any time to get up the courage. I had the courage from the beginning. I could have said anything I wanted at that point but didn't because you didn't deserve a response and a great many people agreed.

I needed the time because I walked away from the computer and went outside to build some fence. Don't get too many 60-degree days in November around here.

Let me ask you a serious question: what in the world is your point?

His mother TOLD HIM she was being abused. What AT ALL does MY definition of abuse have to do with anything? Perhaps if you explain your motivation for wanting to know, it would help the situation.

As it is, I - and about a dozen other people - see your question as typical DC-style "turn it on the victim" deflection.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:24 AM   #150
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You only have 2 options:

A) Avoid a bad situation. This is family. You decide when it's worth being around or not.

B) Realize you can't change or fix this. The only good you can inject in the situation is behaving the way you believe is right/moral/justified and let the chips fall where they may.

You going to jail changes nothing and only hurts your life and family and future.

You'll be in a cage and he'll be there with your mother...
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