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Old 09-18-2012, 10:02 PM  
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:03 AM   #781
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but the guy has serious leadership questions.
Where does this come from??
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #782
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Actually, I think the Chiefs would be unlucky if all they got from the number one overall pick was an Andy Dalton clone.

Dalton's fine and all but at this point, he hardly looks like a guy that can put a team on his shoulders and win when it matters most.
Unfortunately for us the choice comes down to low risk Dalton reward or a poor man's RGIII with big bust potential.

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:05 AM   #783
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Because they are both black!!! Herpateederp.

Nuh-Uh, I see a middle-class Cambell in Geno or maybe a slumlord Culpepper.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud View Post
Actually, I think the Chiefs would be unlucky if all they got from the number one overall pick was an Andy Dalton clone.

Dalton's fine and all but at this point, he hardly looks like a guy that can put a team on his shoulders and win when it matters most.
This.

Andy Dalton to me is the worse possible QB for a franchise. A guy who is solid enough to hold a starting spot for the majority of his career but never realistically be capable of taking his team to a SB.

You either want a QB who is really good (ie - capable of winning a SB), or really bad (get you that #1 pick to get the next really good QB).

Middle of the road just puts you in purgatory for about a 5-6 year period.


- You know for being on the fence of the 3 QBs, as I typed that out, I think I just convinced myself that Wilson or Smith would be better options for that reasoning because I think Barkley to Dalton is a good comparison.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:36 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by suds79 View Post
This.

Andy Dalton to me is the worse possible QB for a franchise. A guy who is solid enough to hold a starting spot for the majority of his career but never realistically be capable of taking his team to a SB.

You either want a QB who is really good (ie - capable of winning a SB), or really bad (get you that #1 pick to get the next really good QB).

Middle of the road just puts you in purgatory for about a 5-6 year period.
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I couldn't disagree more. Dalton is an ascending player and is what, 24 years old? He's in a perfect offense for his skillset (ala Joe Montana) and there's no reason at all why they shouldn't be good for many, many years. His intangibles are good, his teammates believe in him...you could do a LOT worse.

You don't have to have the top #1 most elite physical talent; you need a plus player at the position. Matt Ryan does not have the biggest arm, yet he is borderline elite at the position, for example.

If we had Andy Dalton in place, and were running a variant of the WCO, we'd be doing a LOT better than 1-9, I think.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:38 AM   #786
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all that being said, I expect it will be Barkley with maybe Jay Gruden as HC. That's a solid combo.

Personally, I go back and forth but I'm kind of liking the boom or bust pick in Geno Smith.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:46 AM   #787
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I couldn't disagree more. Dalton is an ascending player and is what, 24 years old? He's in a perfect offense for his skillset (ala Joe Montana) and there's no reason at all why they shouldn't be good for many, many years. His intangibles are good, his teammates believe in him...you could do a LOT worse.

You don't have to have the top #1 most elite physical talent; you need a plus player at the position. Matt Ryan does not have the biggest arm, yet he is borderline elite at the position, for example.

If we had Andy Dalton in place, and were running a variant of the WCO, we'd be doing a LOT better than 1-9, I think.
Few points to hit on.

Do you think Andy Dalton could in a given year be a top 5 NFL QB? If so, then you're eligible for a SB and you're fine. (and we disagree on him)

If not? Then it's just time wasted IMO.

I'm not interested in doing a lot better than 1-9 or being competitive. I'm only interested in the Chiefs ending up with a universally regarded top 5 QB so they can win the SB.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #788
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could Dalton be a top 5 guy in any given year? yes. Is he there right now? no, but then he is in his second year. He's smart, he's accurate, and he's in the right system for his skillset. So yes, he absolutely could. I'm no Marvin Lewis fan, so I think there are issues with that team going forward, I just don't think they include the QB situation.

but in year 4 or 5? Sure. Add another WR weapon? you bet.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:55 AM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suds79 View Post
Few points to hit on.

Do you think Andy Dalton could in a given year be a top 5 NFL QB? If so, then you're eligible for a SB and you're fine. (and we disagree on him)

If not? Then it's just time wasted IMO.

I'm not interested in doing a lot better than 1-9 or being competitive. I'm only interested in the Chiefs ending up with a universally regarded top 5 QB so they can win the SB.
Uh...slow down a bit, sport.

If you only care about having one of the top 5 in the league, you're going to be disappointed, that's just all there is to it. And you're going to be disappointed for a very long time.

Luck and Rodgers are in place and will be better than anyone in this draft for a decade.

Brees and Brady are going to be around for awhile as well. Big Ben and Stafford are on/off elite and will be around for some time (please try to remember that Stafford was the 4th QB in NFL history to throw for 5k yards last year).

RGIII will be incredible every day he's healthy. Eli, Ryan and Flacco are all very good in their own right as well and could easily be SB winners. Eli has been, Flacco would have been last season had Lee Evans bothered to tuck a TD catch, Ryan sure looks like he can this year. Beyond them, are you really going to say that it's impossible for a team to win a SB with Matt Schaub?

If you have a top 10 Quarterback, you can win a SB. If you have a top 15 QB, it can be done, but it's going to be tough (see the 49ers, who should have been there had their punt returner been able to hold onto the football).

Being satisfied with anything is an exercise in maintaining realistic expectations. Saying "I demand a top 5 QB or it just doesn't matter" simply isn't realistic. If you have a top 5 QB in the nfl for a decade, you probably have a fringe HOFer on your hands at worst. Saying "HOF or GTFO" is absolutely as stupid as it sounds.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:02 PM   #790
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Being satisfied with anything is an exercise in maintaining realistic expectations. Saying "I demand a top 5 QB or it just doesn't matter" simply isn't realistic. If you have a top 5 QB in the nfl for a decade, you probably have a fringe HOFer on your hands at worst. Saying "HOF or GTFO" is absolutely as stupid as it sounds.
Okay feel like we're talking semantics a little here but sure. I initially said top 5 QB. You say top 10 could win a SB. Whatever. That wasn't my point.

My point was that I think I'm discovering I'm more in favor of a boom or bust type pick at QB like Smith or Wilson. Why? Because I feel like the Matt Barkley to Andy Dalton comparison is a strong one for multiple reasons. I think he could be solid for a lot of years to come but doubt if he could ever be great in order to win a SB.

Now the term boom or bust is exactly that and I'm okay with that. If we hit that boom then we have a legit chance to get to a SB. If that guy is a complete bust then we'll be right here in 3-4 years to take the next highest rated QB in that draft.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:18 PM   #791
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Okay feel like we're talking semantics a little here but sure. I initially said top 5 QB. You say top 10 could win a SB. Whatever. That wasn't my point.

My point was that I think I'm discovering I'm more in favor of a boom or bust type pick at QB like Smith or Wilson. Why? Because I feel like the Matt Barkley to Andy Dalton comparison is a strong one for multiple reasons. I think he could be solid for a lot of years to come but doubt if he could ever be great in order to win a SB.

Now the term boom or bust is exactly that and I'm okay with that. If we hit that boom then we have a legit chance to get to a SB. If that guy is a complete bust then we'll be right here in 3-4 years to take the next highest rated QB in that draft.
Fair enough. That's where I am as well.

I don't think it's fair to assign a number of QBs that can do it, but I do think it's fair to say that there's a certain caliber of QB you definitely want to have to do it.

Right now I think we have a fair number of QBs that are good enough or could be good enough to win a SB. I think it's possible that Dalton could develop a little more and be placed in a WCO, becoming a SB caliber quarterback. It would require he have a great team around him and an ideal system for him, but it could be done.

It's just the uphill climb. I'd far rather go after a force multiplier; a boom/bust QB that makes everybody around him better than they are. I don't think that's what you'll get out of Dalton - his teams are going to be a as strong as his supporting cast.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:18 PM   #792
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I think I'm leaning that way myself, but I think Dalton has a brighter future than you do.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:19 PM   #793
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I would be very happy with either Barkley or Smith. We can win big with both of them.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #794
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If you have a top 5 QB in the nfl for a decade, you probably have a fringe HOFer on your hands at worst. Saying "HOF or GTFO" is absolutely as stupid as it sounds.
46 Super Bowls have been played to date. How many Super Bowl winning QB's aren't in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

The answer: Not very many. Ten.

Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theisman, Jim McMahon, Phil Simms and Doug Williams, Jeff Hostelter, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

All of those guys played in an era where QB wasn't as important as it is today; the running game was paramount. Since 2004, the rules have been "relaxed" to the point where if you're lacking a Franchise QB or HOFer in waiting, you're not going to win a Super Bowl.

I think it's safe to say that Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Ben Rothlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton and Eli Manning will all end up in the HOF someday.

So, by taking all of that information into consideration, I think it's highly unlikely that any team will win a Super Bowl without a potential Hall of Fame QB.

Andy Dalton may prove us wrong but the odds are stacked against him.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #795
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all true, but the odds are stacked against ANY individual drafted QB. There are more Ryan Leafs, David Carrs, and Joey Harringtons than there are Peyton Mannings.

Which, let me be very clear, cannot drive the team away from attempting to get one of these franchise QB's. You MUST have one.
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