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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:05 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Even with that, you would refuse a two-state solution, would you not.
No, I would gladly and joyously accept it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:06 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
It's reality.
Yes, I know. Nice folks you support there. Does that display of joy bother you at all?
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:07 PM   #333
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
No, I would gladly and joyously accept it.
With the '67 borders?
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:09 PM   #334
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Yes, I know. Nice folks you support there. Does that display of joy bother you at all?
If you want to start a new topic examining my feelings towards the Palestinian celebrations in the wake of 9/11, I'll go there and answer all your questions. Promised.

This thread is not about me, and I'm not derailing it to me. It's about Palestine's struggle for statehood. Who I am is irrelevent to that.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:09 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
With the '67 borders?
Perhaps.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:10 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
If you want to start a new topic examining my feelings towards the Palestinian celebrations in the wake of 9/11, I'll go there and answer all your questions. Promised.

This thread is not about me, and I'm not derailing it to me. It's about Palestine's struggle for statehood.
There's no need for that. I'm sure that you find their displays of joy distasteful but you understand why they did so.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:11 PM   #337
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Perhaps.
Therein lies the rub.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:11 PM   #338
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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There's no need for that. I'm sure that you find their displays of joy distasteful but you understand why they did so.
I'm glad we had this talk.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:13 PM   #339
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Therein lies the rub.
It isn't even a touch let alone a rub, unless and until the "Palestinians" and Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist.

Again, Israel has demonstrated historical precedent of making peace with those who are willing to make that necessary step. The "Palestinians" and Hamas have not.

You still haven't given ANY examples to the contrary. Because you can't.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:14 PM   #340
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I'm glad we had this talk.
I know it's icky for you, but the truth sometimes is.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:19 PM   #341
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If anyone wants this settled they first have to understand Hamas has to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. It is that simple.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:22 PM   #342
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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If anyone wants this settled they first have to understand Hamas has to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. It is that simple.
There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:23 PM   #343
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and what exactly do they deserve?

another 60 years of conflict and occupation?

a denial of human rights which are routinely accorded to other people?

dislocation and disruption of their communities and culture?

what is it that the palestinian people deserve?

and why do they deserve it?

because hamas is crazy and only concerned with staying in power, all palestinians should suffer?

because some palestinians continue to be radicalized and don't want peace?

what do they deserve because part of their leadership is violent and virulently anti-israel?

and what about the israelis? what do they deserve? most of the west bank and all of jerusalem? do you think they will ever find peace by pursuing those policies?

attitudes like yours are one reason that the conflict might not ever be settled...

it's not possible to find a basis to compromise and resolve the conflict if you're unwilling to take into account the rights of ordinary palestinians and view them as somehow not deserving of self-government and inalienable human rights...
They deserve to continue to enjoy the miseries of non-statehood, poverty, violent conflict and all of the other bad things you listed.

They deserve these things because they continue to support the people who prevent them from getting the blessings of peace and relative prosperity that Israel offers them.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:25 PM   #344
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There's a lot of things that "have" to happen.

I'm not convinced that's one of them.


Egypt? Jordan?

What is the common thread between those two and Israel?
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:26 PM   #345
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They deserve to continue to enjoy the miseries of non-statehood, poverty, violent conflict and all of the other bad things you listed.

They deserve these things because they continue to support the people who prevent them from getting the blessings of peace and relative prosperity that Israel offers them.
Israel's offering them peace and prosperity?

Link, please.
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