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Old 11-27-2012, 07:05 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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So why does Israel prevent Gaza exports?

Though I disagree with it, I can understand why Israel would block imports to Gaza. Israel must watch out for its own safety, but there's no question in my mind that these measures which are designed to be preventative are carried out in ways that are clearly punitive to the Palestinian people in the wake of their election of Hamas.

But blocking exports from Gaza?

The article at the very end posits a couple different reasons for this, one of which is that this is punitive, to punish the Palestinian people for their sins against Israel and their embrace of Hamas. And while that may play into it, I think the article's other explanation is easier to consider: allowing Gaza to participate economically with its neighbors would at least nominally enrich it, as trade always does. It will increase its ties with its neighbors, and allow the Gazans to effectively function a little more as an autonomous state.

All of which would only aid Palestinians in their striving for their own state.

So, clearly this must be stopped.

Please, tell me how I'm how wrong/supportive of Hamas/anti-Semitic I am in thinking preventing Gazan exports is yet more evidence of the Likud's total indifference to the two-state solution.

And please tell me how Israel isn't inching closer to full-on apartheid of the Palestinian people.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...ockade/265565/

The Mainstream Media's Biased Coverage of the Gaza Blockade
By Robert Wright
Nov 25 2012, 10:34 PM ET

There's reason to hope that the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel will lead to an easing of Israel's suffocating economic blockade of Gaza. The ceasefire text said that "opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods... shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire." But, more than 100 hours later, we're still waiting for word of actual progress.

Meanwhile, if you're wondering where to turn for background information about the blockade, I have this guidance: stay as far away from mainstream media as possible.

Sadly typical of the way the MSM covers the issue is a recent New York Times piece about the ceasefire by David Kirkpatrick and Jodi Rudoren (both of whom have done excellent work on other issues in the region). The piece described the blockade as "Israel's tight restrictions on the border crossings into Gaza under a seven-year-old embargo imposed to thwart Hamas from arming itself."

Putting it this way is a real time saver, not just because it fits into a single short sentence, but because, if you're too busy to actually write that sentence, the Israeli government's press office would be happy to do it for you. But this description of the blockade raises a question:

If the essential purpose of the blockade were indeed to "thwart Hamas from arming itself," wouldn't restrictions on imports into Gaza suffice? (And even then the import restrictions wouldn't have to be as draconian as they were when imposed, or even as tight as they are now, after some loosening.) What I'd like to see an enterprising MSM reporter ask is: How do Israel's severe restrictions on Gazan exports keep arms from getting to Hamas?

Kirkpatrick and Rudoren, later in their piece, do elaborate a bit on Israel's motivation for imposing the blockade. But not enough. After raising the prospect that Egypt may open the Rafah crossing into Gaza, they write that "Israel enforces its embargo on the other sides of Gaza, fearing that it would face an influx of refugees or end up with responsibility for the impoverished enclave."

Fearing "an influx of refugees" doesn't explain why Israel won't let Gazans put whatever goods they want to export on a ship and send them across the Mediterranean to Europe or Africa. Nor, really, does this fear explain the other side of the export restrictions--not letting Gaza export much of anything to Israel or the West Bank. Making sure that exports were confined to goods, and didn't include people, would be readily doable. Israelis know a thing or two about how to set up an effective checkpoint.

The closest Kirkpatrick and Rudoren get to a plausible reason for the export restrictions is in positing an Israeli fear of winding up "with responsibility for the impoverished enclave." But even here they're not putting nearly a fine enough point on it. Here's the fine-point version:

Recall that a very plausible motivation for Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was to address "the demographic problem"--the fact that the number of Palestinians in the occupied territory, plus the number in Israel proper, was beginning to approach the number of Israeli Jews. That meant that if Israel's aggressive settlement program eventually led to Israel's absorption of the occupied territories, Israel wouldn't remain a Jewish state unless it were an apartheid state--i.e., unless it continued to deny Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories the right to vote. But once you remove Gaza from the equation, and define it as outside of the occupied territory, the math changes (though Gazans contend their territory is still, for practical purposes, occupied, since Israel controls the ports and airspace and the Israeli border and enters Gaza at will to kill Gazans). In this scenario--the divide and conquer scenario--the last thing Israel wants to do now is permit the sort of organic economic ties between Gaza and the West Bank that would make it easier to think of their Palestinian inhabitants as a single people.

There's one other possible motivation for Israel's severe restrictions on commerce involving Gaza: collective punishment. Maybe Israeli leaders want to keep all of Gaza impoverished as payback for the sins of Hamas. Maybe they even think that this impoverishment will lead Gazans to reject Hamas. If so, I have bad news: If Gazans reject Hamas, it will be in favor of Islamic Jihad or even more radical elements, in keeping with the general principle that imposing unjust suffering on people empowers extremists.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:05 AM   #16
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:45 AM
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #17
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.
Right.

Many of the terrorist factions are supported by iran, but the same people with open support to the palestinians refuse to condemn the worst enemy of peace.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:29 PM   #18
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Ah, I see. Hamas exports terrorism. Stop the exports. Stop the terrorism. Makes sense.
The less money Hamas has, the less missiles and rockets they can buy. So in a sense, yes.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #19
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That's an idiotic theory created by a prejudiced mind.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:56 PM   #20
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If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to allow Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazans expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:10 PM   #21
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to all Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazan's expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.

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Old 11-27-2012, 03:03 PM   #22
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To prevent money from ending up in the hands of Hamas?

To prevent Hamas from buying more rockets and weapons with that money?

Because there is a naval blockade in place right now because Gazans have elected people (Hamas) to represent them who believe in this:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


You are making it much more difficult than it has to be....heck even Netanyahu , Obama , and Abbas understand this....

Hamas must renounce the Covenant, agree to negotiate, and give up the "jihad is the only solution" clauses in their platform. Period.

If they did that, I firmly believe Israel would have no choice but to acknowledge them as a state, and end the blockade.

Really, its up to the Palestinian people...
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:09 PM   #23
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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I fully support Israels right to defend itself from violent objectors to its existence. Its coming too. There will be a knockdown fight sooner rqther than later. Israel will not allow Iran to get a nuke. I wouldn't either.
This doesn't even come close to answering the OP.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:09 PM   #24
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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I would imagine because they want to prevent Hamas gaining any more power, in the case of exports, via money.
What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #25
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Perhaps when the Palestinians start acting like a civilized entity, they will get treated like one. If they want to export and establish trade, then quit trying to kill women and children.
So it's punitive. You're impoverishing them to punish them.

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In addition, Hamas would use the financial gain to buy more bombs and rockets, in which they would launch at....you guessed it, Israel.
Um, Hamas is getting the rockets and bombs they want for free.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #26
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's an idiotic theory created by a prejudiced mind.
Explain yourself.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #27
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If your theory were correct, Israel would continue to refuse to allow Gazans to export if Hamas were removed and the Gazans expressed an interest in a peaceful, two-state solution. I don't think there's a chance in hell (the gate to which is apparently located somewhere in Gaza according to Hamas) that we'll get to test your theory under those conditions anytime soon. The problem is Hamas and it's palestinian supporters, not Israel or Likud.
Explain yourself.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
So it's punitive. You're impoverishing them to punish them.
Of course it's punitive. The embargo started when Hamas was elected in, right? And the Egyptians agreed with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Um, Hamas is getting the rockets and bombs they want for free.
Indeed. Just imagine what new goodies they could throw at Israel with more funds.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?
You keep referring to some Greater Israel idea that you attribute to Likud. Is there any kind of mission statement that you can point to to support your accusation like that to which Hamas critics point to support the contention that Hamas seeks to destroy the Jewish state? Or is this just something your pro-palestinian gut instincts tell you?
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
What does more power do for Hamas that's so threatening?

Wound the Likud's chances at a Greater Israel solution?
Sorry the thread hasn't gone quite the way you wanted it...
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