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Old 11-27-2012, 08:05 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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So why does Israel prevent Gaza exports?

Though I disagree with it, I can understand why Israel would block imports to Gaza. Israel must watch out for its own safety, but there's no question in my mind that these measures which are designed to be preventative are carried out in ways that are clearly punitive to the Palestinian people in the wake of their election of Hamas.

But blocking exports from Gaza?

The article at the very end posits a couple different reasons for this, one of which is that this is punitive, to punish the Palestinian people for their sins against Israel and their embrace of Hamas. And while that may play into it, I think the article's other explanation is easier to consider: allowing Gaza to participate economically with its neighbors would at least nominally enrich it, as trade always does. It will increase its ties with its neighbors, and allow the Gazans to effectively function a little more as an autonomous state.

All of which would only aid Palestinians in their striving for their own state.

So, clearly this must be stopped.

Please, tell me how I'm how wrong/supportive of Hamas/anti-Semitic I am in thinking preventing Gazan exports is yet more evidence of the Likud's total indifference to the two-state solution.

And please tell me how Israel isn't inching closer to full-on apartheid of the Palestinian people.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...ockade/265565/

The Mainstream Media's Biased Coverage of the Gaza Blockade
By Robert Wright
Nov 25 2012, 10:34 PM ET

There's reason to hope that the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel will lead to an easing of Israel's suffocating economic blockade of Gaza. The ceasefire text said that "opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods... shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire." But, more than 100 hours later, we're still waiting for word of actual progress.

Meanwhile, if you're wondering where to turn for background information about the blockade, I have this guidance: stay as far away from mainstream media as possible.

Sadly typical of the way the MSM covers the issue is a recent New York Times piece about the ceasefire by David Kirkpatrick and Jodi Rudoren (both of whom have done excellent work on other issues in the region). The piece described the blockade as "Israel's tight restrictions on the border crossings into Gaza under a seven-year-old embargo imposed to thwart Hamas from arming itself."

Putting it this way is a real time saver, not just because it fits into a single short sentence, but because, if you're too busy to actually write that sentence, the Israeli government's press office would be happy to do it for you. But this description of the blockade raises a question:

If the essential purpose of the blockade were indeed to "thwart Hamas from arming itself," wouldn't restrictions on imports into Gaza suffice? (And even then the import restrictions wouldn't have to be as draconian as they were when imposed, or even as tight as they are now, after some loosening.) What I'd like to see an enterprising MSM reporter ask is: How do Israel's severe restrictions on Gazan exports keep arms from getting to Hamas?

Kirkpatrick and Rudoren, later in their piece, do elaborate a bit on Israel's motivation for imposing the blockade. But not enough. After raising the prospect that Egypt may open the Rafah crossing into Gaza, they write that "Israel enforces its embargo on the other sides of Gaza, fearing that it would face an influx of refugees or end up with responsibility for the impoverished enclave."

Fearing "an influx of refugees" doesn't explain why Israel won't let Gazans put whatever goods they want to export on a ship and send them across the Mediterranean to Europe or Africa. Nor, really, does this fear explain the other side of the export restrictions--not letting Gaza export much of anything to Israel or the West Bank. Making sure that exports were confined to goods, and didn't include people, would be readily doable. Israelis know a thing or two about how to set up an effective checkpoint.

The closest Kirkpatrick and Rudoren get to a plausible reason for the export restrictions is in positing an Israeli fear of winding up "with responsibility for the impoverished enclave." But even here they're not putting nearly a fine enough point on it. Here's the fine-point version:

Recall that a very plausible motivation for Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was to address "the demographic problem"--the fact that the number of Palestinians in the occupied territory, plus the number in Israel proper, was beginning to approach the number of Israeli Jews. That meant that if Israel's aggressive settlement program eventually led to Israel's absorption of the occupied territories, Israel wouldn't remain a Jewish state unless it were an apartheid state--i.e., unless it continued to deny Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories the right to vote. But once you remove Gaza from the equation, and define it as outside of the occupied territory, the math changes (though Gazans contend their territory is still, for practical purposes, occupied, since Israel controls the ports and airspace and the Israeli border and enters Gaza at will to kill Gazans). In this scenario--the divide and conquer scenario--the last thing Israel wants to do now is permit the sort of organic economic ties between Gaza and the West Bank that would make it easier to think of their Palestinian inhabitants as a single people.

There's one other possible motivation for Israel's severe restrictions on commerce involving Gaza: collective punishment. Maybe Israeli leaders want to keep all of Gaza impoverished as payback for the sins of Hamas. Maybe they even think that this impoverishment will lead Gazans to reject Hamas. If so, I have bad news: If Gazans reject Hamas, it will be in favor of Islamic Jihad or even more radical elements, in keeping with the general principle that imposing unjust suffering on people empowers extremists.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:07 PM   #61
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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And I'm asking you if you know WHY the levels didn't reach what was agreed to or not. You seem to blame Israel for that, correct?
You were asking me about the shift in their enforcement in 2006. But I digress.

I don't think the blame is binary, but yes, Israel shares the vast majority of it on this particular score.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:08 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I did at one point, when then conflict was going on. It was mostly shit rockets with no aiming capacity.
Seems like that's rather important data to have, no?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:08 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Seems like that's rather important data to have, no?
I would agree. What was your point in asking?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:09 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You were asking me about the shift in their enforcement in 2006. But I digress.

I don't think the blame is binary, but yes, Israel shares the vast majority of it on this particular score.
What I am asking you is if you know why the level of truck crossings out of Gaza never reached the agreed to goal of 400 per day per the AMA.

Do you know why or not? If you know, please tell me. If you don't know, I'll inform you.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:11 PM   #65
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I would agree. What was your point in asking?
Because none of the rockets have any real internal guidance, or "shit" rockets to use your expression. Including the one's they build themselves.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #66
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
What I am asking you is if you know why the level of truck crossings out of Gaza never reached the agreed to goal of 400 per day per the AMA.

Do you know why or not? If you know, please tell me. If you don't know, I'll inform you.
I've already shared my own personal answer to that particular issue in the OP.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Because none of the rockets have any real internal guidance, or "shit" rockets to use your expression. Including the one's they build themselves.
Right.

Still don't follow your point, though.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:17 PM   #68
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I've already shared my own personal answer to that particular issue in the OP.
I see. So, you knew that the main reason that the Karni crossing didn't meet the AMA goals was Israel closing the crossing due to repeated Hamas attacks on the crossing and that pesky tunnel that was being dug under it?

Is that right?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:20 PM   #69
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Right.

Still don't follow your point, though.
The point is that allowing more exports lets Hamas get more money.

They could use that money to build more indigenous weaponry, such as the Qassam rocket.

You stated that they get their weaponry for free.

That isn't the case. They manufacture some themselves.

Pretty basic stuff.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:24 PM   #70
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I see. So, you knew that the main reason that the Karni crossing didn't meet the AMA goals was Israel closing the crossing due to repeated Hamas attacks on the crossing and that pesky tunnel that was being dug under it?

Is that right?
I knew a couple of the crossings had been attacked.

The Karni crossing is only one crossing. It's not *the* crossing for Gaza. There are like seven or eight of them. And again, that doesn't account for the fact that Israel was not meeting the AMA standards prior to these attacks.

Really, this is a microcosm of the whole issue:

If you oppress people, they will seek extralegal solutions. If you push them to the brink, make them feel like their very survival is at stake, they will radicalize. And they will embrace assholes like Hamas.

Israel's insanity on restricting exports bullshit feeds these attacks. The reason to attack these points is largely deflated if you allow exports to flow.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I knew a couple of the crossings had been attacked.

The Karni crossing is only one crossing. It's not *the* crossing for Gaza. There are like seven or eight of them. And again, that doesn't account for the fact that Israel was not meeting the AMA standards prior to these attacks.

Really, this is a microcosm of the whole issue:

If you oppress people, they will seek extralegal solutions. If you push them to the brink, make them feel like their very survival is at stake, they will radicalize. And they will embrace assholes like Hamas.

Israel's insanity on restricting exports bullshit feeds these attacks. The reason to attack these points is largely deflated if you allow exports to flow.
Do you know what crossing your graph above shows?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:25 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
The point is that allowing more exports lets Hamas get more money.

They could use that money to build more indigenous weaponry, such as the Qassam rocket.

You stated that they get their weaponry for free.

That isn't the case. They manufacture some themselves.


Pretty basic stuff.
With materials they can access for free. The people feeding them weapons will feed them simple materials for better weapons if they think it is easier to smuggle.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:29 PM   #73
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Do you know what crossing your graph above shows?
All potential crossings. Karni is not the only crossing represented there. And it's not the only place Gaza could export out of.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
When you engage in a series of actions designed to make the two-state solution less and less feasible, it's evident that you're not looking for the two-state solution.

Netanyahu and the Likud want all the land.
So no charter, no mission statement, no speeches about Greater Israel? Just your perverted interpretation of events?

Netanyahu wants a secure peace for Israel. He'd take a two-state solution in a heartbeat if there were any realistic chance that it could create a lasting peace. With Hamas in charge in Gaza, clearly with the support of a large segment of the palestinian people, and with no legitimate partner for peace to be found even among the less radical (but still non-moderate) segments of the palestinian political establishment, how can you expect Netanyahu make all the concessions?
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:33 PM   #75
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All potential crossings. Karni is not the only crossing represented there. And it's not the only place Gaza could export out of.
Okay.

Well, I'm glad that you acknowledge that the reason the Israelis haven't met the agreement number of truck crossing because of Hamas' actions. It isn't really surprising considering that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel, as you also acknowledge.

It would have been intellectually honest of you to mention those acts of aggression by Hamas when you posted that meanie graph, BTW.

"Economic warfare" indeed...
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