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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:17 PM   #466
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I doubt he will, Direckshun does not do specifics. I fail to see the apartheid comparison, as far as I know, arab citizens in Israel have full rights, and can live and practice their religion in peace.
When someone uses the word that way, it makes me believe he doesn't even have a clue what apartheid even means. I wonder if he accuses Jordan of the same ?

Along with religious freedom, Palestinian Arabs in Jerusalem have unprecedented political rights. Arab residents were given the choice of whether to become Israeli citizens. Most chose to retain their Jordanian citizenship. Moreover, regardless of whether they choose to be an Israeli citizens or not, Jerusalem Arabs are permitted to vote in municipal elections and play a role in the administration of the city.



“I also respect the fact that Israel allows for a multifaith climate in which every Friday a thousand Muslims pray openly on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. When I saw that, I had to ask myself, where in the Islamic world can 1,000 Jews get together and pray in full public view?”

— Muslim author Irshad Manji
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:19 PM   #467
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
I doubt he will, Direckshun does not do specifics.
This is not the first time that you have demonstrated that you do not read my posts, or if you do, you do not comprehend them.

This thread now has 95 posts by Direckshun in it, And you still do not understand my position.

That is hysterical. How is that even possible.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #468
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm not arguing that Israel do the complete opposite -- I don't even know what that phrase means. I'm arguing that they discontinue many of their policies and adopt smarter policies.

I do think if they did this, Hamas' aggression would decline. I don't know about their militant factions stopping altogether, however. There are terrorist factions in Hamas and I support bringing them to justice.

But I'm not looking to appease Hamas. I'm looking for the Palestinians to give up on them. I think if Israel gives up on a lot of their shit policies, that can happen.
No. The entire org from top to bottom is sworn to Israel's annihilation. You have a hard time getting that.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #469
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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It's done.

138 to 9, with 41 abstains.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/...ons/index.html

U.N. approves Palestinian 'observer state' bid
By David Ariosto and Michael Pearson, CNN
updated 5:50 PM EST, Thu November 29, 2012

New York (CNN) -- The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday endorsed an upgraded U.N. status for the Palestinian Authority, despite intense opposition from the United States and Israel.

The resolution elevates their status from "non-member observer entity" to "non-member observer state," the same category as the Vatican, which Palestinians hope will provide new leverage in their dealings with Israel.

Its leaders had been working with dozens of supporting nations to develop a formal draft, enlisting the backing of European countries such as France and Spain.

The vote was 138 delegates in favor of the measure, nine against and 41 abstentions, including Germany.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said the move, which many call symbolic, represents a "last chance to save the two-state solution."

It comes on the heels of an eight-day conflict that raged between Israel and Hamas fighters, where a series of airstrikes and rocket launches drew international attention and threatened regional stability.

"We did not come here seeking to delegitimize a state established years ago, and that is Israel; rather we came to affirm the legitimacy of the state that must now achieve its independence, and that is Palestine," he said.

But Israel's U.N. ambassador Ron Prosor said the move largely ignores the specifics of longstanding issues, such as settlements in disputed lands, and cannot substitute for direct negotiations between Jerusalem and Ramallah.

This resolution "doesn't pursue peace," Prosor said, criticizing Abbas for being unable to represent the Gaza Strip, where a Hamas-controlled government presides.

"It pushes it backwards," he said.

The effort stalled last year when it became apparent that the bid could not get the necessary support in the Security Council. Observer state status does not require Security Council approval, unlike full membership recognition.

The observer status resolution needs only a majority of the U.N.'s 193 members to approve.

The United States and Israel have remained steadfast in their opposition, saying the move will not advance the cause of Middle East peace.

U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice said American leaders could not support a measure that circumvents direct talks and cautioned that Thursday's decision did "not establish Palestine as a state."

Rice urged both sides to the resume direct negotiations without preconditions.

"Israel is prepared to live in peace with the Palestinian state," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Thursday. "But for peace to endure, Israel's security must be protected, the Palestinians must recognize the Jewish state and they must be prepared to end the conflict with Israel once and for all."

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev called the resolution "political theater."

But Palestinian leaders have said they had the right to go to the U.N. because Israel failed to comply with agreements signed more than two decades ago.

"It's about a contract. Our contract is that in five years, we should have concluded the treaty of peace and all core issues. This did not happen, and we're talking about 20 years later. And going to the U.N. is not a unilateral step," Palestinian Authority chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in September.

The last round of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority was in 2010.

Erakat said the new status would eliminate Israeli justifications for building settlements in the disputed areas of East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

But Israeli officials disagreed.

"No decision by the U.N. can break the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel," Netanyahu said.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:25 PM   #470
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Pretty good rundown.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AS1HB20121129

What's all the fuss about a Palestinian U.N. upgrade?
By Louis Charbonneau
Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:29pm EST

The Palestinian Authority is expected to win an upgrade of its observer status at the United Nations on Thursday from "entity" to "non-member state," which would amount to implicit U.N. recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been leading the campaign to win support for a U.N. General Assembly resolution raising its status. The move comes on the heels of an eight-day conflict this month between Israel and Islamists in the Gaza Strip, who are pledged to Israel's destruction and oppose his efforts toward a negotiated peace.

Following are questions and answers about the Palestinian move on Thursday - the 65th anniversary of the U.N. vote to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states - and what it means for the 4.3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

WHAT IS NON-MEMBER STATE STATUS?

The Palestinian Authority is currently considered an "entity," not a state at the United Nations. If the resolution is approved by the U.N. General Assembly as expected, that status will change to "non-member state," like the Vatican.

Switzerland also had non-member state status until it joined the United Nations as a full voting member 10 years ago.

Recognition as a non-member state will have a certain symbolic value, giving the Palestinians a higher profile in terms of speaking order during U.N. meetings. But they will still be unable to vote during General Assembly sessions.

The change will also have important legal implications.

The Palestinians will be able to join the International Criminal Court (ICC) and some specialized U.N. bodies like the International Atomic Energy Agency.

CAN THE U.N. RECOGNIZE PALESTINE AS A SOVEREIGN STATE?

The United Nations cannot grant countries recognition. That is something that is done on a bilateral basis. However, the granting of non-member state status to the Palestinian Authority does acknowledge that the majority of U.N. member states do recognize Palestine as an independent state.

Traditionally, universal recognition of state sovereignty is accompanied by full membership in the United Nations. That is something the Palestinians sought last year with much fanfare but failed to achieve because the United States used the threat of a veto in the Security Council to block the Palestinian U.N. membership application.

HOW MANY VOTES DO THE PALESTINIANS NEED?

The Palestinian Authority needs a simple majority for the resolution to pass. Assuming all U.N. member states are present and none is barred from voting for non-payment of dues, the Palestinians will need the support of 97 of the 193 members.

The Palestinians say that 132 countries recognize an independent state of Palestine. They are hoping for over 130 'yes' votes from the assembly and a strong show of support from Europe. U.N. diplomats say it may achieve that.

WILL ANYTHING CHANGE ON THE GROUND AFTER A YES VOTE?‬‬‬‬‬‬

There will be no immediate changes. The West Bank will remain under Israeli occupation and settlement building will no doubt continue. However, the Palestinians say the change in status will alter the rules of the game, arguing that the vote means Israel can no longer call the Palestinian Territories "disputed" land. Instead, the land will have been clearly designated as belonging to the Palestinian people, even if the final boundaries still have to be determined.

The same applies to the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority has virtually no influence in the 25-mile-long (40-km-long) coastal enclave where 1.6 million Palestinians live.

WILL ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES RETALIATE?

The United States and Israel oppose the Palestinian move, saying direct peace talks are the only way to achieve statehood.

Israel has threatened the Palestinians with retaliation for seeking a U.N. status upgrade. It has suggested that it could withhold some taxes and customs duties it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.

But in the wake of the latest Gaza conflict, Israel seems reluctant to reveal itself as diplomatically isolated. It has toned down threats of retaliation in the face of wide international support for the initiative, notably among its European allies.

Israel may opt for harsh retaliation if the Palestinians file complaints against the Jewish state at the ICC, which U.N. diplomats say is Israel's main concern at the moment.

The United States has also threatened to withhold financial aid to the Palestinians. If they join any specialized U.N. agencies, Congress will likely seek to cut off U.S. funding to those agencies in accordance with U.S. law.

The United States, which pays 22 percent of the regular U.N. budget, is the biggest financial contributor to the world body.

WHAT ABOUT PEACE TALKS?

Abbas has said he will be ready to revive moribund Israeli-Palestinian peace talks as soon as the U.N. vote is over. That suggests he is prepared to drop a pre-condition that all Israeli settlement building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem should be halted before negotiations can resume.

While a number of EU states have applauded this shift in stance, Israel and the United States say that the Palestinian U.N. move will undermine efforts to revive the talks.

The Middle East peace process has been stalled for two years, mainly over Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which have expanded despite being deemed illegal by most of the world.

Many Western diplomats complain about the timing of the Palestinian move, which comes weeks after U.S. President Barack Obama's re-election. They say the Palestinians have not given Obama time to push for new peace talks with Israel.

But the diplomats also say that the Palestinian move is no excuse to scrap peace talks. The resolution calls for an immediate resumption of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:29 PM   #471
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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I don't get why they don't put Palestine in Jordan where it should be
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:30 PM   #472
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I'd like to locate a list of the countries that voted, and how. Can anybody dig that up?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:31 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is not the first time that you have demonstrated that you do not read my posts, or if you do, you do not comprehend them.

This thread now has 95 posts by Direckshun in it, And you still do not understand my position.

That is hysterical. How is that even possible.
No, I read and comprehend them...you type a lot, but say very little. When anyone ever asks you a direct, simple question, you immediately avoid it, mis-direct it, or give some answer that is not relevant.

Just because you have a large number of posts, does not mean you have actually said anything.

As you so commonly say, swing and a miss.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:32 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'd like to locate a list of the countries that voted, and how. Can anybody dig that up?
Here are the countries that voted no, according to your revered Huffington Post:

Voting "no" Wednesday were Israel, the United States and Canada, joined by the Czech Republic, Panama and several Pacific island nations: Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru and Palau. The Pacific nations typically support the U.S. and Israel at the U.N.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...m_hp_ref=world
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:36 PM   #475
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Direcshun do you acknowledge Jordanian apartheid policies?

How do you feel about Palestine in Jordan?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #476
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No, I read and comprehend them...you type a lot, but say very little. When anyone ever asks you a direct, simple question, you immediately avoid it, mis-direct it, or give some answer that is not relevant.
Honestly, you're just wrong. I don't think any of the other frequent pro-Israel participants in this thread would agree with you that I "say very little" substantially on this topic.

If you honestly can't comprehend my position on Palestine a hundred posts later, well...
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:39 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
The Pacific nations typically support the U.S. and Israel at the U.N.
Weird.

I wonder why. Trade?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:46 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Honestly, you're just wrong. I don't think any of the other frequent pro-Israel participants in this thread would agree with you that I "say very little" substantially on this topic.

If you honestly can't comprehend my position on Palestine a hundred posts later, well...
I comprehend your position your position perfectly well. You support Hamas, despite your extraordinary measures to deny otherwise, and you believe Israel should compromise first and most in the peace process, even to the point of them compromising on their national security. You feel that the actions of Hamas are caused by Israel's actions, not the fact that Hamas is an evil terrorist group that wishes to kill every Jew on the planet.

Now you are trying to portray Israel as a South Africa clone, when you know full well that arabs in Israel are treated far better than Jews, or Christians, for that matter are treated in places like Jordan and Egypt.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:51 PM   #479
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I comprehend your position your position perfectly well. You support Hamas
You're done. You're wrong.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:53 PM   #480
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $1203135
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
you believe Israel should compromise first and most in the peace process
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
You feel that the actions of Hamas are caused by Israel's actions, not the fact that Hamas is an evil terrorist group that wishes to kill every Jew on the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
Now you are trying to portray Israel as a South Africa clone
Just so we're clear, you're wrong on each of these as well.

So honestly, you fundamentally do not understand my views.

Which, after 100 posts, there's really nothing I can do for that at this point. You just don't get it.

Have at it, mnchiefsguy. That's your choice. It's divorced from reality.

Enjoy it.
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Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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