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Old 11-13-2012, 10:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #496
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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I'm not seeing or hearing that. Where did you develop that opinion?

Hamas still says in its bylaws, campaign material and at every speech to the crowds that come to hear them speak is, the destruction of Israel. They have no right to exist and should be thrown off the land of the righteous owners, the Palestinians.
Right. That's what Palestinians want right now. Oppressed populations radicalize, human history has proven this.

So you have to douse some cold water on this insanity. And you do it by halting the oppression.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #497
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"Everyone" wouldn't vote that I support Hamas.

The people who follow these threads and engage in extensive discussion with me over the issue -- most notably Donger and patteeu -- would most likely vote that I do not.

Which, again, and I can't stress this enough, I do not give a shit.

And this is boring the piss out of me.
Okay, I'm weighing in here. We agree on a lot of political and world views on how things ought to be.

But, on this we disagree. I'm just not seeing why any American should support Hamas or even support any Muslim that supports the destruction of Israel. What am I missing here?
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:55 PM   #498
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Okay, I'm weighing in here. We agree on a lot of political and world views on how things ought to be.

But, on this we disagree. I'm just not seeing why any American should support Hamas or even support any Muslim that supports the destruction of Israel. What am I missing here?
I don't believe Americans should support Hamas. You should support Palestinian independence, however.

It will allow an entire people to be free on land they have a historical and cultural right to, interact with their neighbors, become part of the international community, potentially thrive economically, enjoy full human rights, and minimize violence with Israel. Armed with self-determination and economic freedom, Palestine will moderate, and the Hamas' of the population will lose their foothold.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:55 PM   #499
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Right. That's what Palestinians want right now. Oppressed populations radicalize, human history has proven this.

So you have to douse some cold water on this insanity. And you do it by halting the oppression.
ohhh I fully admit the Israeli's are oppressing the Palestinians. They make life for all Arabs that live in the West Bank and Gaza extremely difficult.. A lot of pain is inflicted.

However, when you are asleep in your room with your 9 year old brother and a rocket comes into your house and you wake up with your brothers blood and brains all over you....... it makes you more inclined to say **** those heathrens.

And every time that Israeli's kill innocent Arabs, the same things are said on the Arab side of the fence.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:57 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Angels we have heard on high.



I do not believe that the path for Palestine would be easy. I think it would be pretty difficult. It would take a phenomenal amount of restraint and patience.

Like just about anything worth pursuing does.
But restraint and patience only on the Israeli side, right? If a band of radical Jews (let's call them Jamas) started committing private acts of terrorism against palestinian innocents, would you be calling on the faction of palestinians who presumably want peace to restrain themselves or would you be calling on Israeli authorities to put an end to it?

Just to be clear, I think your approach is completely unworkable. There's no way Israel can just absorb whatever damage Hamas wants to inflict knowing that there is no peace-loving authority in Gaza to reign them in. Ever.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:01 PM   #501
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I don't think that's the order this goes in.

If Israel adopts a smarter approach to Palestine, then we are in a much better position for a two-state solution to be adopted. Part of the two-state solution, I believe, is mutual recognition of existence.
I don't believe any country could/should ever give concessions when the other side can't publicly acknowledge their right to exist.

It's a non-starter.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:01 PM   #502
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I don't believe Americans should support Hamas. You should support Palestinian independence, however.

It will allow an entire people to be free on land they have a historical and cultural right to, interact with their neighbors, become part of the international community, potentially thrive economically, and minimize violence with Israel. Armed with self-determination and economic freedom, Palestine will moderate, and the Hamas' of the population will lose their foothold.
Sorry, I'm not buying the cumbaya. The extremist will never, ever allow a peace to take hold.

As long as any Arab group/state/religion/kingdom refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, they don't deserve our support.

I get that we should support people that are seeking freedom. But, until they quit swearing death to our friends, they don't deserve our support.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:11 PM   #503
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The result is as expected. The administration can say we voted no but they can now give mondy to the Palastinians at will. They saw the opportunity to sucker the tax payer and they were right. Pay up. Plus they will continue to do the UN's bidding while the money just flows
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:12 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
ohhh I fully admit the Israeli's are oppressing the Palestinians. They make life for all Arabs that live in the West Bank and Gaza extremely difficult.. A lot of pain is inflicted.

However, when you are asleep in your room with your 9 year old brother and a rocket comes into your house and you wake up with your brothers blood and brains all over you....... it makes you more inclined to say **** those heathrens.

And every time that Israeli's kill innocent Arabs, the same things are said on the Arab side of the fence.
Yep. It's an incredibly difficult situation.

Emotional rage rarely fuels effective policy, however.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:13 PM   #505
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I don't believe any country could/should ever give concessions when the other side can't publicly acknowledge their right to exist.

It's a non-starter.
Why do you think that is?

Let's isolate that issue, because it comes up a lot with you.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:15 PM   #506
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How do the Palestinians who live in Israel compare on economic measurements to those outside of Israel?
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:17 PM   #507
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But restraint and patience only on the Israeli side, right?
Nope.

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Just to be clear, I think your approach is completely unworkable. There's no way Israel can just absorb whatever damage Hamas wants to inflict knowing that there is no peace-loving authority in Gaza to reign them in. Ever.
I'm not saying Israel shouldn't protect itself. I'm saying exercise proportional responses instead of disproportional responses, stop exacting punitive punishment, and stop stealing land.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:18 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Sorry, I'm not buying the cumbaya. The extremist will never, ever allow a peace to take hold.

As long as any Arab group/state/religion/kingdom refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, they don't deserve our support.

I get that we should support people that are seeking freedom. But, until they quit swearing death to our friends, they don't deserve our support.
The point is to understand why, and then work to resolve that.

We call that pragmatism.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:29 PM   #509
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The point is to understand why, and then work to resolve that.

We call that pragmatism.
Lest we forget. In 1948 Israel was willing to forever accept an Israeli state and the West Bank and Gaza as permanent Palestinian states. The arabs said lets kill all those Jews. No mercy. Declared a holy war.

The Arabs could have helped the Palestinians at any point since 1948. Built some houses, provide drinkable water etc. They chose not to because of politics. They decided to let their fellow Arabs live in squalor to make their political point and use those images for political purposes in their own country.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:31 PM   #510
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Nope.



I'm not saying Israel shouldn't protect itself. I'm saying exercise proportional responses instead of disproportional responses, stop exacting punitive punishment, and stop stealing land.
What would your idea of a proportional response be to Hamas raining scores (and sometimes hundreds) of rockets per day into Israel from Gaza?
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