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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:31 AM   #526
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
What possible reason would Palestine not acknowledge Israel's right to exist? What would be the motive?
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Direckshun's angle seems to be that they'd be giving up a bargaining chip.
That is absolutely true.

The biggest issue for the Palestinian people, in 2012, is their survival and existence in what is culturally and historically known as Palestine. Whether Israel actually exists is secondary; getting their own land and self-determination is primary.

So if it bothers Israel so much that a symbolic act that will do nothing to affect what's happening on the ground is not being granted by the Palestinians, they'll just keep it in their pocket and use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations.

Why is it so important to you, mlyonsd? I assume for symbolic purposes, because nothing on the ground is going to change.

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
In Direckshun's world, it would seem, the people he disfavors are the ones who owe concessions to the negotiating process first, whether it's the Israeli-palestinian conflict or the fiscal cliff negotiations.

Anticipated response --> Swing and miss
Swing and a miss.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:32 AM   #527
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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For the record, in response to Palestine being upgraded at the UN, Israel has just started expanding settlements to a part of Jerusalem long-thought to be the deathknell of the two-state solution.

Go ahead and tell me Israel shouldn't be doing anything different than what they're doing now.

Just go ahead and tell me. A generation's worth of ignorance is waiting for your arrival.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
For the record, in response to Palestine being upgraded at the UN, Israel has just started expanding settlements to a part of Jerusalem long-thought to be the deathknell of the two-state solution.

Go ahead and tell me Israel shouldn't be doing anything different than what they're doing now.

Just go ahead and tell me. A generation's worth of ignorance is waiting for your arrival.
The palestinian action at the UN was a step backward (from the Oslo agreement). Why should Israel step forward in response?
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:25 AM   #529
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BTW, Direckshun, acknowledging Israel's right to exist can't just be symbolic or it's worthless. The palestinians have to convince the Israelis that they're sincere if they want their own state.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:40 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The palestinian action at the UN was a step backward (from the Oslo agreement).
In what way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Why should Israel step forward in response?
Israel is taking a radical step backwards with the E1 settlements.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:40 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
BTW, Direckshun, acknowledging Israel's right to exist can't just be symbolic or it's worthless.
Nope, symbolism is very important.

But that's all recognition is. Symbolic. It doesn't change anything on the ground by itself.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:55 PM   #532
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Makes all the sense in the world:

Quote:
Israel has seized more than $120m (£75m)in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority in response to last week's overwhelming vote at the UN general assembly to recognise the state of Palestine. The move came as the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas, returned to cheering crowds in Ramallah in the West Bank following Thursday's vote, in which 138 countries backed enhanced "non-member state" status for Palestine. Only nine countries opposed the move and 41 abstained.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:11 PM   #533
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Yes, since they don't have to do it at all.

And they shouldn't. Why would you ever give money to people sworn to your death?

Do you understand how much money and aid is provided to these people that are sworn to violence and death?
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:13 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
In what way?



Israel is taking a radical step backwards with the E1 settlements.
The palestinians broke another agreement when they went to the UN

They had previously agreed to unilateral talks with Israel
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:17 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Go ahead and tell me Israel shouldn't be doing anything different than what they're doing now.
Theyre both acting like spoiled brats....

Neither wants to say 'sorry' first.....Neither wants to be the one to 'look weak' to the public by admitting any wrong doing.

They are both at fault.....to degrees.


I'm not saying it is the biggest problem, but one of the biggest problems that may not be able to be overcome is the FACT that most Palestinians truly do not believe Israel has a right to exist. (So asking them to 'say' they do is asking a lot...)

We can blame Hamas all we want, but Hamas is elected by the people...and every poll I know of shows something on the order of 80% of the Palestinian PEOPLE do not think Israel has a right to exist. Period.

From what I understand, the majority of Israeli's believe that Palestinians, if they simply acknowledged this right and denounced suicide bombings and martyrdom operations SHOULD have their own country, and have a right to it.

12,000 rockets fired over 10 years.....I mean what if they were their own country? What would happen to a country who fired 12,000 missiles at a neigboring country ?

Personally I think they are lucky they aren't a country yet. Right now they have sympathy as an occupied / subjugated people. If and when they get their own actual country where the buck stops with them....If and when that happens, if they fire missiles they will get the shit kicked out of them even harder IMO.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:44 PM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
In what way?
At Oslo, the parties agreed that changes of status would be negotiated between the parties, not imposed by outside organizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Israel is taking a radical step backwards with the E1 settlements.
I'm not sure Israel considers Oslo operative anymore. Israeli officials have made statements in the past indicating that if the palestinians were to go through with their recognition gambit at the UN, it would be the end of Oslo. I don't know if these statements were official policy or just talk.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:45 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Nope, symbolism is very important.

But that's all recognition is. Symbolic. It doesn't change anything on the ground by itself.
The only thing that's important in this regard is whether or not Israel believes that the palestinians want a two-state peace. If they aren't convinced, then no peace can be had.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:57 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Theyre both acting like spoiled brats....

Neither wants to say 'sorry' first.....Neither wants to be the one to 'look weak' to the public by admitting any wrong doing.

They are both at fault.....to degrees.

I'm not saying it is the biggest problem, but one of the biggest problems that may not be able to be overcome is the FACT that most Palestinians truly do not believe Israel has a right to exist. (So asking them to 'say' they do is asking a lot...)

We can blame Hamas all we want, but Hamas is elected by the people...and every poll I know of shows something on the order of 80% of the Palestinian PEOPLE do not think Israel has a right to exist. Period.

From what I understand, the majority of Israeli's believe that Palestinians, if they simply acknowledged this right and denounced suicide bombings and martyrdom operations SHOULD have their own country, and have a right to it.

12,000 rockets fired over 10 years.....I mean what if they were their own country? What would happen to a country who fired 12,000 missiles at a neigboring country ?

Personally I think they are lucky they aren't a country yet. Right now they have sympathy as an occupied / subjugated people. If and when they get their own actual country where the buck stops with them....If and when that happens, if they fire missiles they will get the shit kicked out of them even harder IMO.
Solid post, in most places.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:02 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
BTW, Direckshun, acknowledging Israel's right to exist can't just be symbolic or it's worthless. The palestinians have to convince the Israelis that they're sincere if they want their own state.
They won't recognize Israel because they don't really believe in it. Their end game is to eventually own all of Israel. It's not like a secret or anything.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:31 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
They won't recognize Israel because they don't really believe in it. Their end game is to eventually own all of Israel. It's not like a secret or anything.
I agree, but I'm not sure if anyone has told Direckshun.
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