2012 Kansas City Royals Repository Thread

[alnorth]

2012 Slogan: Our Time

A better, more accurate 2012 Slogan: It is Finally Next Year
(from Great Expectations)

An alternative slogan if you don't like that one: Someone has to win this crappy division
(from alnorth)

With the beginning of a new year, it is time for the 2012 version of the Royals Repository Thread. We've got Hosmer, we've got a 2011-dominating Gordon, we've got Moose, we've got hopefully a killer bullpen, we've got a stereotypical slow slugging DH, we've got easily one of the best defensive shortstops in the AL, we've got a promising catcher in Salvador Perez. Hell, we've got offense and promising prospects galore.

We do not have starting pitching.

Oh yeah, we've also got this:



Get ready for, (as of January 2012 anyway), one of the most confusing puzzles of a baseball season in recent Royals history. Will they suck? Maybe, I don't know. Will we be given a year of 0.500 baseball? Possibly, I don't know. Will they win the division and go to the playoffs for the first time in 27 years? For the first time in a long time, it could happen, I don't know. 92 losses, 92 wins, or anything in between would not surprise a lot of us.

Everything goes here except Gameday threads and really big news. If a giant story breaks, the Royals achieve some awesome milestone, or we sign/lose a highly significant player/coach/mascot/whatever, then it might also deserve its own thread. This being Chiefs Planet, please do not clutter the board with new threads about trivial Royals news or you will only annoy those who come here for just Chiefs football. If you aren't sure and its not a Gameday thread, it goes here.

What sort of stuff often goes here? SPchief explained it well, so I'll just copy that:

If you locate something of interest.. ANYTHING.. deals on apparel, best ways in/out of the stadium, giveaways, great stories from this season or from seasons gone by, rumors, trades, anything.... feel free to post it here.

[KevB]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Having 5 things fall in your lap does not overshadow the other 75 things he's done wrong.

Most organization complain about the 5 things done wrong possibly outweighing the 75 things done right. Not the Royals! We argue that those 5 good things is grounds for an extension!

I'm not arguing that he's a good GM. Deez asked for one single thing he's done right, so I listed them. That's all. And who the hell is asking for an extension? If he doesn't win this year, I think he should get kicked to the curb.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by KevB

I'm not arguing that he's a good GM. Deez asked for one single thing he's done right, so I listed them. That's all. And who the hell is asking for an extension? If he doesn't win this year, I think he should get kicked to the curb.

That was me poking fun at people actually defending DM in any capacity.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Like hell it didn't! I don't know of any sane Royals fan that wasn't absoutely shocked with that deal... We all knew at the time Frenchy just had the year of his career, and it was still simply "above average" at the plate (but very good in the outfield). You don't throw that much money at an obvious aberration. The contract was appalling at the time.

As far as trades:

JP Howell for Gathright. "wtf?"
Howell had off-field problems and it was clear he wouldn't succeed as a starter. Gathright was still very favorably viewed in the industry. I worked at SN at the time. Entire baseball team there (which I was part of) loved the deal.

MacDougal for Lumsden and Cortes... still never understood why that was done.
Because MacDougal wasn't that good to begin with and had arm issues. Meh.

Ordalis Perez trade.
The Royals gave up Elmer Dessens in this deal. Meh.
Jeremy Affeldt and Denny Bautista for Shealy and Dohman... JESUS CHRIST
THe Royals traded a bullpen guy for a guy coming off back to back near 1000 OPS seasons in Shealy. Good move at the time.
Keppinger for Haltiwanger
This is a bad one. Keppinger has been a useful util guy ever since
Nunez for Jacobs - that was another where everyone but Dayton saw Jacobs for what he was.
The Royals traded an OK reliever for a guy with power potential. Yes, Jacobs had flaws. But most also expected him to hit 30-35 HR in full time action. Would look worse if Kila Ka'ahuie wasn't the pile of shit the org thought he was
Octavio Dotel for Kyle Davies
1/2 season of a reliever who be a setup man isn't going to net much. A post-hype prospect with upside. This deal is made worse by stubbornly sticking with Davies too long, but it just as easily could have been a James McDonald situation.
Betancourt - Nuff said
Betancourt was bad, but still better than TPJ, and the Royals wouldn't have done better on the open market. Also, the Royals gave up nothing in this deal. So, meh.
Alberto Callaspo for nothing
The Royals got Will Smith in this deal, who still could be a decent back-end starter. Callaspo, meanwhile, has regressed significantly at the plate while growing more expensive. Good deal.
DeJesus for Mazarro\Marks
Mazzero stinks (and was just turned into a few lottery tickets), but Marks has made decent progress and, like Smith, be a solid 4th/5th starter. This would have been DeJesus for Josh Reddick if he hadn't had the freak injury, BTW...
Teahen who everyone loved for Getz, who everyone hates. Good one.
I didn't love Mark Teahen. I hated him, in fact. And he was bad. So, meh.

Betemit for 2 nothings
They got little for him, but he didn't have much value.
Aviles for 2 nothings
Aviles is not good. And this deal was liked at the time
Cabrera for Verdugo (just designated for assignment) and Sanchez... I liked the trade at the time. But it still ended Horrrrrible for the R's.
Doesn't change the fact it was a good move at the time. Hindsight doesn't change the realities of the moment when it happened.

Let's list the trades that have worked out for the R's.

Billy Buckner for Alberto Callaspo. That worked out okay, we got a cup of coffee use out of Callaspo as a utility player, but gave up a good prospect at the time for him... we didn't get fleeced so... I guess? But he ruined it by turning around and shipping Callaspo off for nothing.
The Royals got a few good, cheap years out of Callaspo and then moved him before he got expensive - and before he declined.
Jorge de la rosa for Ramon Ramirez.. then flipped Ramirez a year later for Coco. Not bad for either team.

Farnsworth and Ankiel for Tim Collins. We gave up a productive Reliever and a half-way decent bench player for a Reliever prospect. We had no idea he was going to be this good, but it has definitely worked out well. Unfortunately, we simply got a reliever out of this.

$$$ for Felipe Paulino. Great find... the guy has shown promise off the scrp heap if he can be healthy. unfortunately, he's only done it for small portions within two seasons. I love Felipe and hope he works out.

Zack Greinke and Yuni for Escobar, Jeffress, Cain and Odorizzi. Jeffress is gone, jury is out on Cain, Escobar is our every day SS and We have a pitching prospect that the jury is out on. At this point we basically gave up the Cy Young award winner for our SS.. I "like" the deal, but I'm not enamoured with it like a lot of people were. But it blows away all of Dayton's other moves, without a doubt. He got a good young major league player that is producing for us RIGHT NOW. It just took him 50 trades and a Cy Young piece to get it right.

Yes I'm embelishing some, but only some...

My thoughts above.

I would also add:

Ambiorix Burgos for Brian Bannister. The Royals got a few quality, cheap seasons out of Banny. The Mets got extradition papers.

Anyway, you're not going to find many amazing trades on a GM's record when so little of worth has been sent AWAY from the team you're analyzing.

This is why I say Moore gets too much criticism for his trade history. It's really not bad, considering that most of his trades involve moving low-value guys.

BTW: My overall point is not that Dayton Moore is "Awesome." It's more that there are a lot of other things that deserve criticism BEFORE his trade history. Notably:

1) Stubborn belief in players long past the point of proven failure (Davies, Hochevar, Gload, etc)
2) Poor personnel choices (apparently) for high minors pitching development
3) 2010 draft (this one is looking pretty rough)
4) Refusal to look past traditional baseball stats/thought processes. Lack of flexibility in thought.

[Shogun]

If it werent for the Melky trade we wouldnt have gotten Guthrie, who I attribute will help the ballclub tremendously this year if he looks like he did after we got him last year.

[Mr. Laz]

Originally Posted by Zeke

That was me poking fun at people actually defending DM in any capacity.

why in the hell would that be fun?

unless you're a Cardinals fan or something ...

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by KevB

I'm not arguing that he's a good GM. Deez asked for one single thing he's done right, so I listed them. That's all. And who the hell is asking for an extension? If he doesn't win this year, I think he should get kicked to the curb.

The bottom line is, the Royals are not better wins/losses than before he arrived or minimal gain if any. That's all that matters ultimately.

[Zeke]

Howell had off-field problems and it was clear he wouldn't succeed as a starter. Gathright was still very favorably viewed in the industry. I worked at SN at the time. Entire baseball team there (which I was part of) loved the deal.

Howell's off-field issues was what forced the trade... He was still a young pitching prospect that had value. Gathright had a youtube video, that was it.

Because MacDougal wasn't that good to begin with and had arm issues. Meh.

MacDougal had a 3.33 ERA for the Royals the year before being traded. With less hits than innings, and more strikeouts than innings. He had a very productive year... then posted a 1.8 ERA for the Sox the season we traded him. He had value at the time. You're downplaying this one for whatever reason. You cannot say "at the time" in one breath, then look at this one and not say that. It's being hypocritical in your arguments.

The Royals gave up Elmer Dessens in this deal. Meh.

But you still ended up with Odalis Perez and his contract. why? It was bad at the time.

THe Royals traded a bullpen guy for a guy coming off back to back near 1000 OPS seasons in Shealy. Good move at the time.

They traded two pitchers with lots of upside and MLB experience while relatively young (not to mention both went on to be pretty darned good pitchers). Shealy had 100 AB's in the majors (@ Coors field no less), and was a 27 year old "Prospect". His .990 consecutive OPS seasons was @ Colorado Springs (i think you could post that there. )where he was an older AAAA player (ala Clint Robinson). It was fluffed by the Royals organization, but no one was tripping over themselves to call it a great deal outside of them.

Betancourt was bad, but still better than TPJ, and the Royals wouldn't have done better on the open market. Also, the Royals gave up nothing in this deal. So, meh

Cant disagree more. Anything was better than Betancourt. ANYTHING... And anything comes cheaper.

Callaspo, meanwhile, has regressed significantly at the plate while growing more expensive. Good deal.

Again, you're speaking out of both sides of the mouth when you say that and then this in the same post:

Hindsight doesn't change the realities of the moment when it happened.

It was a poor deal at the time, because he was well liked here in KC and productive... however his off-field issues kind of forced DM's hand.

Aviles is not good. And this deal was liked at the time

Not sure if serious. Aviles was one of the best players on the Royals at the time. He was our starting SS and had put up 2 fantastic years as a Royal. I agree, trade him while he's hot because it was obvious those 2 seasons were the exception.. but it's what we traded him FOR. He fell off the cliff for the BoSox but he had tons of value at the time. again let me refer you to your own quote:

Doesn't change the fact it was a good move at the time. Hindsight doesn't change the realities of the moment when it happened.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Laz

why in the hell would that be fun?

unless you're a Cardinals fan or something ...

Them's fightin words, Laz. I'll see you in Topeka!

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

The bottom line is, the Royals are not better wins/losses than before he arrived or minimal gain if any. That's all that matters ultimately.

Well, yes and no. He has changed the minor league system completely. The scouting, the development... everything for the better.

His results at the ML level are obviously really, really bad.

He can make a very good scouting director or director of minor league operations... but a Major League GM he is not.

[Mr. Laz]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Them's fightin words, Laz. I'll see you in Topeka!

be ready ... i don't fight fair

[Zeke]

I've been married for 15 years now, that's simply kinky to me.

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Well, yes and no. He has changed the minor league system completely. The scouting, the development... everything for the better.

His results at the ML level are obviously really, really bad.

He can make a very good scouting director or director of minor league operations... but a Major League GM he is not.

Ok sure...but we have no idea if his prospects will work out yet. The jury is still out on Moose and Hosmer. Will they ever be superstars? Who knows?

[Infidel Goat]

Does anyone know how much money Dickey is seeking for his extension?

It sounds like he wants a three year extension which I would have no opposition to offering. If it's a reasonable amount ($12 million per year?) then I'd think that Dickey is actually more valuable than someone like Shields.

[duncan_idaho]

Zeke -

Fair enough.

It comes down to, for me, just not seeing anything in that trade history worth getting upset over. Moore has traded a LOT of chicken shit and gotten chicken shit back in return. That's pretty normal.

I disagree with you on a lot of those guys (mostly on the Royals' guys value), but I don't want to give the thread AIDS by nitpicking.

[KevB]

Dutton says if the price for Dickey is Myers then KC is out.