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Old 12-12-2012, 07:26 AM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Obamacare just raised your health care premium by $63

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/12/1...premium-by-63/




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Old 12-13-2012, 10:43 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Wow $5 a month for a year then $4 then nothing. Scary stuff, may have to give up a yogurt a month. Damn.
The tax (and don't try and call it something else, it is a tax) does not go away unless Congress agrees after three years.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:49 AM   #62
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I started with a new company. My premiums are 120 a month for coverage for me and two of my kids, with only a 500.00 deductible and a 1500.00 allotment to cover expenses. If I don't spend the allotment it rolls over to next year. Once it reaches 5000.00 the surplus is added to my retirement fund - all without taxation until I retire. HSA's are amazing!

Too bad the government is too stupid to use an intelligent program that actually rewards people for living healthy and not abusing their insurance and instead penalizes people who actually pay their bills.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Good lord. Now you're just flailing. Can you possibly be so insulated from current events to not know that the price of health care continues to rise and that premiums for most insurance policies are rising at a rate faster than inflation?
As they have been for 50 years or so now....except, now, there seems to be hope that will end some time in the not too distant future. Left to the industry, that certainly would NOT be the case.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:11 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
No I understand that just fine. My problem is with your fallacy of association. Some does not equal all.

Your argument is one company raised their rates. One does not equal all.

Once that is eliminated then you have no argument for a government conspiracy to make everyone buy government health insurance by a giant rate increase. What you need is proof that all rates went up to the point that employers couldn't afford them and from what I've seen there is no conclusive evidence out there for that opinion.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:19 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
As they have been for 50 years or so now....except, now, there seems to be hope that will end some time in the not too distant future. Left to the industry, that certainly would NOT be the case.
Yes, they've been rising for a long time. No, there is no more hope that that will come to an end soon than there was before Obamacare was passed, except in the sense that conniving democrats are licking their chops at the idea that they will have a more favorable political environment to pass single payer after Obamacare forces most employers out of the health care business.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:26 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
As they have been for 50 years or so now....except, now, there seems to be hope that will end some time in the not too distant future. Left to the industry, that certainly would NOT be the case.
Absolutely! That government war on poverty started in the late 60s certainly worked out well.

The government always makes things better.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:41 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by KCWolfman View Post
Absolutely! That government war on poverty started in the late 60s certainly worked out well.

The government always makes things better.
That only seems true, because our national sense for "poverty" includes people who are blessed with a pretty decent quality of life, thanks to our social saftey net--yet, technically, are considered impoverished as viewed through our nation's prism of privilege.

There is no question that a much smaller per centage Americans live in the abject poverty today (than did before the war on poverty) because as a society we've chosen to raise the standard. Whether we should do that...or not, is an entirely different argument though.

Comparing poverty in the 60s with poverty today though....is and apples and oranges comparison. And, yes, too many Democrats conveniently gloss over that fact. Perhaps, that is the discussion we should really be having--instead of the false dichotomy of maintaining the status quo (we can't afford it) versus a Draconian gutting of social programs (that the GOP wants.) FTR, that is the real discussion I think we should be having.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
That only seems true, because our national sense for "poverty" includes people who are blessed with a pretty decent quality of life, thanks to our social saftey net--yet, technically, are considered impoverished as viewed through our nation's prism of privilege.

There is no question that a much smaller per centage Americans live in the abject poverty today (than did before the war on poverty) because as a society we've chosen to raise the standard. Whether we should do that...or not, is an entirely different argument though.

Comparing poverty in the 60s with poverty today though....is and apples and oranges comparison. And, yes, too many Democrats conveniently gloss over that fact. Perhaps, that is the discussion we should really be having--instead of the false dichotomy of maintaining the status quo (we can't afford it) versus a Draconian gutting of social programs (that the GOP wants.) FTR, that is the real discussion I think we should be having.
Gutting - Keeping them solvent - same thing, right?
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
That only seems true, because our national sense for "poverty" includes people who are blessed with a pretty decent quality of life, thanks to our social saftey net--yet, technically, are considered impoverished as viewed through our nation's prism of privilege.

There is no question that a much smaller per centage Americans live in the abject poverty today (than did before the war on poverty) because as a society we've chosen to raise the standard. Whether we should do that...or not, is an entirely different argument though.

Comparing poverty in the 60s with poverty today though....is and apples and oranges comparison. And, yes, too many Democrats conveniently gloss over that fact. Perhaps, that is the discussion we should really be having--instead of the false dichotomy of maintaining the status quo (we can't afford it) versus a Draconian gutting of social programs (that the GOP wants.) FTR, that is the real discussion I think we should be having.
The simple middle ground is the answer. See my earlier post on HSA's. Why wasn't the logical completed?

The reason, I believe, is the Republicans enjoyed the perks of being courted by the insurance companies and the Democrats enjoy currying the votes of people who don't earn their amenities by painting those that have more as vicious ogres.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Bootlegged View Post
Gutting - Keeping them solvent - same thing, right?

Keeping them solvent? Hardly.


No, it's really about the uber wealthy and investors continuing to increase their share of wealth.....amidst an economic climate in which 95% of society has seen miniscule increases to stagnant to declining earnings in the last 10-15 yrs (in puchasing power--real income, adjusted for inflation,) while those who have fared much better insist on even more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfman View Post
The simple middle ground is the answer. See my earlier post on HSA's. Why wasn't the logical completed?

The reason, I believe, is the Republicans enjoyed the perks of being courted by the insurance companies and the Democrats enjoy currying the votes of people who don't earn their amenities by painting those that have more as vicious ogres.
HSA's would work for many middle and upper-class folks, but not so well for the working poor and lower-middle class folks. However, I agree they could have been--still may yet be, part of an evolving solution.

I agree both parties sleeping with politicians drove the current configuration, but time will change the precise parameters of Obamacare. I understand why some feel others "don't earn their amenities." On the other hand, the industry did this to itself when it created a system in which hardworking middle-class people are forced into bankruptcy by a health crisis. Americans, rightly, have said--enough.

While Obamacare is far from perfect, the industry really gave us no reasonable alternative. Many of us consider it a reasonalble starting point to fixing a broke system--one that's been badly broken for more than 20 years.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:54 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Keeping them solvent? Hardly.


No, it's really about the uber wealthy and investors continuing to increase their share of wealth.....amidst an economic climate in which 95% of society has seen miniscule increases to stagnant to declining earnings in the last 10-15 yrs (in puchasing power--real income, adjusted for inflation,) while those who have fared much better insist on even more.



HSA's would work for many middle and upper-class folks, but not so well for the working poor and lower-middle class folks. However, I agree they could have been--still may yet be, part of an evolving solution.

I agree both parties sleeping with politicians drove the current configuration, but time will change the precise parameters of Obamacare. I understand why some feel others "don't earn their amenities." On the other hand, the industry did this to itself when it created a system in which hardworking middle-class people are forced into bankruptcy by a health crisis. Americans, rightly, have said--enough.

While Obamacare is far from perfect, the industry really gave us no reasonable alternative. Many of us consider it a reasonalble starting point to fixing a broke system--one that's been badly broken for more than 20 years.
Wow, someone is really susceptible to propaganda. Ha. So uber-wealthy are influencing the GOP to gut social programs so they can keep their money, keep being the man and hold everyone else down. Got it. This is hidden in the cloak of "reforming" entitlements so they are actually there and paid for - but really what they want is to play Mr. Burns.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:04 PM   #72
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Wow, someone is really susceptible to propaganda. Ha. So uber-wealthy are influencing the GOP to gut social programs so they can keep their money, keep being the man and hold everyone else down. Got it. This is hidden in the cloak of "reforming" entitlements so they are actually there and paid for - but really what they want is to play Mr. Burns.
Tax rates, adjusted for inflation, are lower today....than at any time since the 1950s. And yet all we hear about from the right is the whine for more tax cuts, and how a return to 1990s rates for income taxes and capital gains would ruin the country. What a crock of shit. The 90s were the longest peace-time expansion of the economy in U.S. history--with those rates that many of us would like to see re-implemented.

There also absolutely needs to be entitlement reform, along with real cuts to many programs (including defense spending)--and the Dems need to grow-up on that count. However, this whole trainwreck will not be avoided without a serious discussion about enhancing government revenues as well.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:07 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post

While Obamacare is far from perfect, the industry really gave us no reasonable alternative. Many of us consider it a reasonalble starting point to fixing a broke system--one that's been badly broken for more than 20 years.
There were plenty of alternatives. This is the worst of all possible solutions. In ten years the argument will no longer be if it is good, it will be why government needs to completely take over.

There is not a single sane argument that can convince me that government mandated healthcare is a positive thing for me and my family.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Tax rates, adjusted for inflation, are lower today....than at any time since the 1950s. And yet all we hear about from the right is the whine for more tax cuts, and how a return to 1990s rates for income taxes and capital gains would ruin the country. What a crock of shit. The 90s were the longest peace-time expansion of the economy in U.S. history--with those rates that many of us would like to see re-implemented.

There also absolutely needs to be entitlement reform, along with real cuts to many programs--and the Dems need to grow-up on that count. However, this whole trainwreck will not be avoided without a serious discussion about enhancing government revenues as well.
As has been pointed out a million times, you can take the top 2%'s income tax back to Clinton's rates and fund the gov't for 8 days.

Once again - propagandized. Raising taxes is a fundamentally stupid idea during a never ending recession. Just class warfare - just trying to paint R as rich 2% and evil in order to earn votes. Has nothing at all to do with solving any problems.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:08 PM   #75
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Tax rates, adjusted for inflation, are lower today....than at any time since the 1950s. And yet all we hear about from the right is the whine for more tax cuts, and how a return to 1990s rates for income taxes and capital gains would ruin the country. l.
I am all for returning to the rates of the 90s, if we can return to the entitlement vs total budget percentages of the 90s
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