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Old 12-13-2012, 07:34 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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In defense of unions.

The goings on in Michigan have taken some time for me to process, what with a lame duck majority of Michigan Republicans busting the only real leverage unions had in one of the biggest union states in America. There's been a heated debate over it the past couple weeks, albeit not on this forum, and tempers have flown off the handle as fistfights have broken out on the steps of the capital in Lansing.

Makes sense, it's a really heated issue, and I see both sides of it. One one hand you have people whose wellbeing has been supported and improved by unions -- those people are going to be intensely passionate about what happens. On the other hand, you have people who believe unions are unfairly leveraged bully organizations attempting to soak a company's profits dry.

I see both sides of the issue, but I'm pro-union. I see how they are often derided and dismissed on this forum so I think it's time to take at least one post to properly characterize what unions are all about and to flesh out why they are such a positive thing.

There are many different kinds of unions, so I am not offering a defense of any one particular union, but I think all unions benefit from the below arguments:

1. A union is democratic capitalism at work.

Our capitalist society encourages everybody to work hard, earn skills, and maximize those skills for your own personal gain. That harnessing this capacity to improve your life will drive progress in society, spark innovation and improve overall quality of life.

Well, that's what every union under the sun is. A group of people have acquired a set of skills, be it to build something, teach something or serve something, and they've decided to maximize their gain from those skills by banding together and negotiating with those who employ them.

Conservatives typically argue that the wealthy are virtuous, because they are able to find advantages in the market that play to their favor. They often argue in favor of huge bonuses that are frequently untied to any accomplishments for people who run companies, because that's what the free market has designated as their worth. That's exactly what unions are all about. They find an advantage in their market that plays to their favor, and attempt to maximize their benefit.

2. They fight inequality.

Now, whether you like the result or not of those negotiations, as an outside observer, is irrelevent to capitalism. What matters is that a worker should earn his or her leverage and then play it in the market for their advantage. Busting unions is an affirmative action to keep the masses of middle class workers from exploiting the advantages of capitalism, while further enabling the wealthy to benefit. Which brings me to my next point.

Inequality is not inherently bad, but there is an inequality epidemic in this country. We are at a historic point of inequality where, primarily though tax policy, the wealthy retain more and more of their wealth leaving the rest of pie in smaller and smaller slices to be divided up amongst a growing population of middle- and lower-class folks.

Unions were an effective check on this trend for large swaths of society, but they've been systematically busted in about half the country's states in various ways, leaving employees only able to negotiate in small packs or individually -- which, as if I need to tell you, is almost always a negatory position. Busting unions hurts the middle class, and further entrenches more wealth at the top.

3. They are the lone agency for middle class workers.

And that's my next point, really. Even if you dislike unions, you can agree with me on two things:

(a.) The wealthier you are, the better represented you are in terms of lobbying and interest groups. There are any number of interest groups that fight specifically on the behalf of people who have more resources, run businesses, are wealthy. The poor have always been underrepresented, there is no Big Poverty influencing the actions of Washington, DC, or any statehouse for that matter.

If there were ever a Big Middle Class, however, it's unions. That's Point (b.).

(b.) There is no more effective organization specifically geared at representing the interests of middle and lower class workers than unions. Which of course is the real reason why employers, who otherwise would face only nominal opposition in their ability to raise money and influence politics, despise them so much.

Unions are incredibly effective at raising funds and turning out political participation among their members. If they were to be wiped from existence -- what existing organization could possibly take their place?

America is America because of middle class workers. Broader than that: a healthy middle class is critical to any society's ability to thrive. Take unions away, or at least largely defang them, and you risk a political system with hardly any serious support for the most important element of society.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:46 PM   #91
listopencil listopencil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That's a fantastic story about your mother (sounds like a great idol growing up), but I'm not sure how that's a response to my point.

I said that your options for jobs are really limited if you're in her stead of life as you originally described it, not the supermarket cornucopia of opportunity that you suggested all employees enjoy. And I also said that employers have by far the most leverage.
You were saying that someone like my mom doesn't really have a lot of options. She created options through hard work and applying herself. She bettered herself and created the life that she wanted.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:48 PM   #92
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
You were saying that someone like my mom doesn't really have a lot of options. She created options through hard work and applying herself. She bettered herself and created the life that she wanted.
That was my point as well, but it missed his bat~
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #93
trndobrd trndobrd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
So, no, you aren't aware of how the free rider problem is a legit back breaker for unions?
It really wouldn't be a back breaker if unions offered a tangible benefit to members beyond the 61% 'overhead' costs of union organizations. I think I found your free rider problem though.

AFL-CIO Staff:
Name / Position/ Gross Salary / Benefits and other Compensation / Total compensation
RICHARD TRUMKA PRESIDENT $272,250.00 $21,500.00 $293,750.00
ARLENE HOLT-BAKER EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT $238,975.00 $21,345.00 $260,320.00
ELIZABETH SHULER SECRETARY-TREASURER $238,975.00 $14,142.00 $253,117.00
PAUL LEMMON ASST TO PRES&NATL PROGMGR $193,869.00 $50,971.00 $244,840.00
RICHARD BARCHIESI SPECIAL ASST TO THE PRES $154,830.00 $50,691.00 $205,521.00
JONATHAN HIATT EXEC ASST TO PRESIDENT $172,281.00 $13,274.00 $185,555.00
PENNY SCHANTZ INTL REPRESENTATIVE $145,701.00 $27,859.00 $173,560.00
KIRK BRUNGARD EXECUTIVE ASST TO S/T $161,321.00 $6,917.00 $168,238.00
LYNN RHINEHART GENERAL COUNSEL $162,100.00 $5,240.00 $167,340.00
JANE MCDONALD EXEC ASSISTANT TO THE EVP $161,321.00 $3,580.00 $164,901.00
TIMOTHY MADDOX DEPUTY SCC DIRECTOR $131,565.00 $28,539.00 $160,104.00
GERALD SHEA SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE $157,442.00 $2,556.00 $159,998.00
DENISE MITCHELL ASST TO PRES PUBLIC AFFRS $157,442.00 $2,515.00 $159,957.00
ANA AVENDANO ASST TO THE PRES FOR IMM $144,518.00 $13,918.00 $158,436.00
SANDRA FELDER DIRECTOR OF FIELD DEPTS $131,565.00 $21,302.00 $152,867.00
DAMON SILVERS DIRECTOR OF POLICY $134,385.00 $18,061.00 $152,446.00
WILLIAM LURYE ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL $144,518.00 $7,477.00 $151,995.00
NANCY SCHIFFER ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL $144,518.00 $7,310.00 $151,828.00
TODD ANDERSON REGIONAL DIR. - MIDWEST $112,760.00 $35,878.00 $148,638.00
DONALD SLAIMAN SENIOR FIELD REP $106,781.00 $41,793.00 $148,574.00
THEA LEE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF $144,518.00 $3,117.00 $147,635.00
TERRY STAPLETON CHIEF BUDGET OFFICER $144,518.00 $2,087.00 $146,605.00
JAMES COPPESS ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL $144,518.00 $1,287.00 $145,805.00
SUSAN WASHINGTON ASSIST TO DIR OF POLICY $143,540.00 $1,871.00 $145,411.00
EDWARD TYNES SENIOR ORGANIZER $104,937.00 $39,871.00 $144,808.00
AMANDA PACHECO ASST TO THE S/T $141,100.00 $3,137.00 $144,237.00
DAVID ECKSTEIN ASSISTANT DEPUTY DIRECTOR $109,988.00 $33,511.00 $143,499.00
KAREN ACKERMAN DIR. OF POLITICS & FIELD $140,034.00 $2,908.00 $142,942.00
MARY BUNN ORGANIZING DIRECTOR $126,586.00 $15,890.00 $142,476.00
ARTURO MENDOZA FIELD CAMPAIGN DIRECTOR $102,795.00 $35,161.00 $137,956.00
KAREN NUSSBAUM ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT $137,672.00 $0.00 $137,672.00
KENNY JOHNSON REGIONAL DIRECTOR - SOUTH $115,125.00 $22,097.00 $137,222.00
JOHN WELSH DEPUTY BUDGET DIRECTOR $134,044.00 $1,918.00 $135,962.00
WILLIAM SAMUEL LEGISLATION DIRECTOR $131,565.00 $4,078.00 $135,643.00
GASPAR VERDUGO SENIOR ORGANIZER $104,937.00 $30,594.00 $135,531.00
CATHERINE FEINGOLD DIRECTOR OF INTERNATIONAL $120,263.00 $13,833.00 $134,096.00
NANCY MILLS SOLIDARITYCTR INTERIM DIR $131,676.00 $1,636.00 $133,312.00
DAVID KEICHER GOV, ORG & LEAD DEV COORD $106,781.00 $25,569.00 $132,350.00
BARBARA NICCOLIHILTZ SENIOR FIELD REP $107,492.00 $23,154.00 $130,646.00
RONALD BLACKWELL CHIEF ECONOMIST $115,917.00 $14,429.00 $130,346.00
CARLOS CARRILLO SENIOR FIELD REP $106,781.00 $23,200.00 $129,981.00
YAEL FOA SENIOR FIELD REP $101,215.00 $27,886.00 $129,101.00
JOHN KISER SENIOR FIELD REP $107,492.00 $21,092.00 $128,584.00
RAMON BECERRA SENIOR FIELD REP $101,952.00 $26,505.00 $128,457.00
NAOMI WALKER DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR CONGR $122,263.00 $6,190.00 $128,453.00
KATHLEEN CASAVANT DIR GOV ORGAN & LDR DEVEL $115,125.00 $13,168.00 $128,293.00
KATIE GJERTSON SENIOR FIELD REP $108,399.00 $18,537.00 $126,936.00
ANGELIA WADE ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL $122,100.00 $4,645.00 $126,745.00
DANIEL PEDROTTY DIR. OFFICE OF INVESTMENT $120,263.00 $6,447.00 $126,710.00
MICHAEL CAVANAUGH DEPUTY DIR. OF FIELD DEPT $123,345.00 $3,297.00 $126,642.00
MICHAEL PODHORZER DIRECTOR OF POLITCAL $124,767.00 $1,647.00 $126,414.00
JOSEPH HOLLAND SENIOR FIELD REP $106,604.00 $19,526.00 $126,130.00
ROSALYN PELLES CIVIL RIGHTS DIRECTOR $120,263.00 $5,779.00 $126,042.00
RAQUEL MURILLO SENIOR ORGANIZER $101,952.00 $23,533.00 $125,485.00
GORDON PAVY DIR. OF COLLECTIVE BARG $120,263.00 $4,673.00 $124,936.00
JUSTIN MCBRIDE SENIOR ORGANIZER $86,374.00 $38,518.00 $124,892.00
WILLIAM BASHAM SENIOR ORGANIZER $104,937.00 $19,555.00 $124,492.00
WILLIAM PASTREICH ORGANIZING COORD/CAMP DIR $88,276.00 $36,038.00 $124,314.00
JAMES SNOW REGIONAL DIRECTOR - NE $108,504.00 $15,634.00 $124,138.00
MARGARET SEMINARIO DIR. OF SAFETY & HEALTH $120,263.00 $3,608.00 $123,871.00
DONNA JABLONSKI DEPUTY DIR. PUBLICATIONS $120,263.00 $3,295.00 $123,558.00
JAMES EVANS V@W LEAD ORGANIZER $104,937.00 $17,943.00 $122,880.00
DAVID CARPIO NATL EDUCATION TRAINER $108,935.00 $13,364.00 $122,299.00
MARY THEURER REGIONAL CAMPAIGN COORDIN $100,997.00 $20,835.00 $121,832.00
CATHY HOWELL ASSISTANT DIRECTOR $110,770.00 $10,894.00 $121,664.00
ROBERT BAUGH INDUSTRIAL UNIONS COORDIN $115,125.00 $6,379.00 $121,504.00
SHARI CANNON CONTROLLER $120,263.00 $1,174.00 $121,437.00
CAROL EDELSON SENIOR ORGANIZER TRAINER $91,364.00 $29,937.00 $121,301.00
TIMOTHY GRAY ADMINIS DIRECTOR $120,263.00 $821.00 $121,084.00
STEPHEN WORREY CHIEF ENGINEER $120,348.00 $240.00 $120,588.00
PATRICK SCOTT DEPUTY DIR. - ORGANIZING $98,109.00 $22,087.00 $120,196.00
BRENDA MOON SENIOR FIELD REP $106,781.00 $13,322.00 $120,103.00
JOSEPH ALFENITO JR DIR. OF INFO. TECHNOLOGY $116,307.00 $3,072.00 $119,379.00
CECELIE COUNTS LEGISLATIVE REP $118,101.00 $1,041.00 $119,142.00
FEDERICO AZCARATE DIR VOICE@WORK CAMP $112,100.00 $6,860.00 $118,960.00
THOMAS TROTTER LEGISLATIVE REP $115,426.00 $3,074.00 $118,500.00
RICHARD CASTOR SYSTMS ANLYST-ELECT COMM $114,717.00 $3,408.00 $118,125.00
SELWYN CARTER REGIONAL CAMPAIGN COORDIN $105,554.00 $12,222.00 $117,776.00
RICHARD WOMACK STATE AND LOCAL COORDINAT $97,098.00 $20,522.00 $117,620.00
EDWARD FEIGEN STRATEGIC CAMPAIGN COORDI $115,426.00 $2,056.00 $117,482.00
MINWEN LO ORACLE/UNIX SYSTEMS ANALY $112,874.00 $4,524.00 $117,398.00
JANET SCHAFFER REGIONAL CAMPAIGN COORDIN $105,696.00 $11,573.00 $117,269.00
MARK ZOBRISKY FACILITIES MANAGER $115,125.00 $2,003.00 $117,128.00
JAMES LOWE GOV, ORG & LEAD DEV COORD $105,086.00 $11,971.00 $117,057.00
JEFFREY VOGT ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR $111,981.00 $4,907.00 $116,888.00
KELLY ROSS DEPUTY DIRECTOR $115,125.00 $1,728.00 $116,853.00
ROBERT MCGARRAH NORTHEAST CAPITAL STEWARD $112,874.00 $3,845.00 $116,719.00
SAMANTHA CONNOLLY DIR. OF HUMAN RESOURCES $115,125.00 $1,502.00 $116,627.00
MICHAEL NOONAN STRATEGIC PLAN & TECH DIR $115,426.00 $1,071.00 $116,497.00
PATRICIA SWEENEY DIR OF MEETINGS & TRAVEL $115,125.00 $1,363.00 $116,488.00
BYRON CHARLTON LEGISLATIVE REP $114,881.00 $1,541.00 $116,422.00
TERESE BOUEY ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR CO $115,125.00 $1,169.00 $116,294.00
SARAH MCKENZIE DIRECTOR OF THE OI $109,677.00 $6,478.00 $116,155.00
ELIZABETH LEVIE V@W STATE & LOCAL POLICY $104,937.00 $10,792.00 $115,729.00
SCOTT REYNOLDS STATE & LOCAL COORDINATOR $113,916.00 $863.00 $114,779.00
BRANDON REES ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR $109,988.00 $4,738.00 $114,726.00
EDWIN ACOSTA JR NAT'L WORKER CENTER COORD $111,070.00 $3,566.00 $114,636.00
AMY NIEHOUSE SENIOR ORGANIZER TRAINER $94,552.00 $19,984.00 $114,536.00
JIMMY HYDE SENIOR FIELD REP $101,586.00 $12,904.00 $114,490.00
MATTHEW GINSBURG ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL $112,100.00 $2,375.00 $114,475.00
GREGORY JEFFERSON LEGISLATIVE REP $112,444.00 $1,994.00 $114,438.00
CHANH LIEN SENIOR GRAPHIC DESIGNER $112,874.00 $1,387.00 $114,261.00
KARIN FELDMAN LEGISLATIVE SPECIALIST $112,874.00 $1,237.00 $114,111.00
POCAHONTAS COLE SUPPORT SERVICES DIRECTOR $112,806.00 $1,286.00 $114,092.00
ALISON OMENS DEPUTY DIRECTOR/OUTREACH $109,988.00 $3,389.00 $113,377.00
NICHOLAS UNGER OUTREACH CAMPAIGN SPECIAL $104,937.00 $8,338.00 $113,275.00
LINDA MULLIGAN GOV, ORG & LEAD DEV COORD $104,937.00 $7,920.00 $112,857.00
BRETT GIBSON LEGISLATIVE REP $111,070.00 $1,549.00 $112,619.00
GEORGE JANSEN MGR-SYSTEMS/DATABASE PROG $109,908.00 $2,522.00 $112,430.00
LORENZO SCOTT GOV, ORG & LEAD DEV COORD $104,937.00 $7,380.00 $112,317.00
HELEN GONZALES ASSISTANT DIRECTOR $111,070.00 $988.00 $112,058.00
FRED MCKENZIE SENIOR ORGANIZER $93,139.00 $18,427.00 $111,566.00
DANIEL MARSCHALL LEGIS. SPECIAL-WORKFORCE $109,320.00 $2,191.00 $111,511.00
MICHAEL SZPAK STRATEGIC CAMPAIGN COORDI $107,492.00 $3,669.00 $111,161.00
SUE LAPLANT MGR OF POLITICAL INFO. $108,644.00 $2,405.00 $111,049.00
DENNIS GRAHAM MGR OF POLITICAL SYSTEMS $107,724.00 $2,376.00 $110,100.00
MARY MAYNARD SENIOR POLITICAL FIELD RE $100,123.00 $9,601.00 $109,724.00
WILLIAM KOJOLA INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST $107,492.00 $2,048.00 $109,540.00
DON MANNING SENIOR FIELD REP $102,113.00 $7,238.00 $109,351.00
ANTHONY MARSALLO SENIOR ORGANIZER TRAINER $94,552.00 $14,714.00 $109,266.00
JULIE GREENE POLITICAL OPERATIONS MGR $108,154.00 $958.00 $109,112.00
TULA CONNELL MANAGING EDITOR $106,785.00 $1,828.00 $108,613.00
CHRISTINE SILVIADEGENNARO LEGISLATIVE & POLICY ANAL $106,760.00 $1,680.00 $108,440.00
ANNE KNIPPER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIO $106,781.00 $1,116.00 $107,897.00
RODNEY MUCHNOK SENIOR FIELD REP $91,884.00 $15,874.00 $107,758.00
VINEETA ANAND CHIEF RESEARCH ANALYST $104,937.00 $2,332.00 $107,269.00
BENJAMIN WAXMAN SPECIAL ASSISTANT $96,100.00 $10,907.00 $107,007.00
PATRICK OMEARA CORPORATE FINANCE SPECIAL $103,651.00 $1,466.00 $105,117.00
AMY MORRIS ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR $101,767.00 $2,761.00 $104,528.00
ANSHU SHETH ASSISTANT CONTROLLER $104,336.00 $0.00 $104,336.00
JULIETTE LENOIR ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR $104,141.00 $0.00 $104,141.00
ADJWOA SHILLAM DEPUTY DIRECTOR $101,767.00 $1,921.00 $103,688.00
PAUL SEMELSBERGER LEAD SECURITY GUARD $102,452.00 $1,183.00 $103,635.00
CHRISTINE KENNGOTT WORKING FAMILIES NETWORK $101,767.00 $1,359.00 $103,126.00
RAND WILSON CAMPAIGN COORDINATOR $91,500.00 $11,523.00 $103,023.00
PATRICIA RECINOS SENIOR FIELD REP $92,566.00 $10,217.00 $102,783.00
ANN MILLER ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR $101,767.00 $904.00 $102,671.00
ISAAC GOBERN SENIOR FIELD REP $90,692.00 $11,377.00 $102,069.00
DANIEL JUSTICE SENIOR FIELD REP $88,513.00 $13,242.00 $101,755.00
RIEMAN DASUKI SR NETWORK ENGINEER $96,626.00 $4,814.00 $101,440.00
MICHAEL HARRIS ENGINEER $99,671.00 $240.00 $99,911.00
GLENN PERUSEK CSR DIRECTOR $95,563.00 $4,029.00 $99,592.00
ROBERT MOSES LEAD SENIOR TECHNICAL SUP $96,397.00 $2,737.00 $99,134.00
JAMES COBY WATCH ENGINEER $97,044.00 $1,705.00 $98,749.00
AMAYA TUNE MEDIA OUTREACH SPECIALIST $96,259.00 $1,992.00 $98,251.00
JORGE PUENTE LEAD TECH. SUPPORT SPEC $95,333.00 $2,576.00 $97,909.00
JENNIFER OONG PAYROLL ADMININSTRATOR $97,650.00 $0.00 $97,650.00
A IZETTA LOESBERG BUDGET & EXPENSE ADMINIST $96,630.00 $542.00 $97,172.00
MATTHEW LACKEY SR POLITICAL STRATEGIST $96,289.00 $853.00 $97,142.00
EMILY SILVER DEPUTY DIRECTOR $97,025.00 $0.00 $97,025.00
MICHAEL HALL SENIOR EDITOR $96,875.00 $78.00 $96,953.00
ROBERT STRUCKMAN SENIOR EDITORIAL AND SPEE $88,513.00 $8,144.00 $96,657.00
JAMES PARKS SENIOR EDITOR $96,397.00 $0.00 $96,397.00
AMY LAMPKIN RESEARCHER/ANALYST $95,907.00 $36.00 $95,943.00
DANIEL COCHRAN COPE SPECIAL ASSISTANT $95,907.00 $0.00 $95,907.00
JONATHAN CORNWELL CAMPAIGN LEAD ORGANIZER $75,858.00 $19,925.00 $95,783.00
ANGELA FORSYTHE ADMINISTRATIVE SECRETARY $94,460.00 $1,256.00 $95,716.00
JOSHUA GOLDSTEIN MEDIA OUTREACH SPECIALIST $93,419.00 $2,054.00 $95,473.00
HEATHER SLAVKIN LEGAL/RESEARCH ANALYST $90,556.00 $4,794.00 $95,350.00
MONIKA GREENHOW WEB EDITORIAL PROJECT MGR $94,552.00 $9.00 $94,561.00
ROBERT FOX DEP DIR - WORKING AMERICA $94,409.00 $0.00 $94,409.00
COREY WILSON SENIOR TECHNICAL SUPPORT $91,474.00 $2,666.00 $94,140.00
WALTER FERREYRA SENIOR TECHNICAL SUPPORT $86,755.00 $5,808.00 $92,563.00
JENNIFER HERNANDEZ REGIONAL CAMPAIGN COORD $84,699.00 $7,765.00 $92,464.00
COURTNEY PECQUEX SPEC ASST-POL OPERATIONS $83,213.00 $8,959.00 $92,172.00
DAVID DYER ASSISTANT TO CONTROLLER $91,493.00 $496.00 $91,989.00
LIZABETH LOMONACO ASSISTANT TO CONTROLLER $91,493.00 $15.00 $91,508.00
TIFFANY HEATH WRITER/RESEARCHER $91,364.00 $0.00 $91,364.00
NORMA ITZ ADMINISTRATIVE SECRETARY $90,182.00 $1,108.00 $91,290.00
KIMBERLY FARRELL FINANCE & REPORTING COORD $91,083.00 $0.00 $91,083.00
JENNIFER KAUFFMAN FIELD COMMUNICATIONS COOR $87,821.00 $2,460.00 $90,281.00
DANIELLE HATCHETT WEB SPECIALIST $89,274.00 $919.00 $90,193.00
JUNE ROSTAN V@W CMPGN LEAD ORGANIZER $75,858.00 $13,983.00 $89,841.00
KEVIN CHRISTENSEN RESEARCHER/ANALYST $75,858.00 $12,974.00 $88,832.00
JAMES GILBERT DIR OF VETERAN'S COUNCIL $87,100.00 $1,515.00 $88,615.00
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:59 PM   #94
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That was my point as well, but it missed his bat~
Then there's my dad. His dad died when he was 16. His mom died when he was 17. He went to work at odd jobs and was able to get on as an unpaid apprentice in a machine shop. Before he was 20 he was a journeyman machinist and married my mom. They kept spitting out kids and he worked a part time night job for a while to make ends meet. Because of his skill, he was able to get on at the NACA. He worked there through the transition from the NACA to NASA in 1958. After their divorce (around 1970) he moved to Colorado and went to work for Ball, in the Aerospace Division. He eventually (reluctantly) joined management and later retired from the company.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:59 PM   #95
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Costs big money to run a union. Pay your dues and do as you are told, bitch.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:02 PM   #96
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He got some cool stuff by the way. I have it now that he has passed away. A patch that flew on a shuttle mission with a thank you letter addressed to his team for one.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:03 PM   #97
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He scoffed at unions and described himself as "...just to the right of Attila the Hun." Funny guy, you probably would have liked him.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #98
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61 percent overhead? Holy shit.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:12 PM   #99
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He got some cool stuff by the way. I have it now that he has passed away. A patch that flew on a shuttle mission with a thank you letter addressed to his team for one.
It sounds like you had two role models who faced the situation they were in do to circumstances both of their choice and some not. They strived to succeed, and made good lives for themselves~
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:15 PM   #100
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61 percent overhead? Holy shit.
Clearly the union would be better off without a union~
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:19 PM   #101
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It sounds like you had two role models who faced the situation they were in do to circumstances both of their choice and some not. They strived to succeed, and made good lives for themselves~
Yeah, pretty much. They both emphasized personal empowerment and a strict No Bullshit policy.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:22 PM   #102
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You guys understand that this isn't Direckshun just defending unions. He's trying to craft an argument that what happened in Michigan is wrong and hurts the middle class, right?

He's saying, "Unions are good." "Free ride kills unions." "Therefore the Michigan thing is bad for everyone."
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:25 PM   #103
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
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You guys understand that this isn't Direckshun just defending unions. He's trying to craft an argument that what happened in Michigan is wrong and hurts the middle class, right?

He's saying, "Unions are good." "Free ride kills unions." "Therefore the Michigan thing is bad for everyone."
He also threw in some share the wealth slants also~
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:41 PM   #104
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So you do not understand why it is widely believed that "right to work" laws are detrimental to the effectiveness of unions?
No, explain it to me.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #105
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It's actually incentivized, but whatever.

You didn't answer my question. Do you understand how the free loader problem breaks the back of a union's ability to negotiate?
If by "breaks the back" you mean weakens it's power, I did answer you. If you mean something more, I disagree. Feel free to explain whatever it is that you think I'm missing.
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