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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:57 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesCrusher View Post
If it was voter fraud it would be non-existent.
NICE! /thread over and Direkshun shown to be a complete hypocrite!

So let's recap...

Voting = protected right of every American
Bear Arms = protected right of every American

YET... most of us here are fine with a few reasonable restrictions on gun ownership (background checks, waiting periods, etc) and old lady Direckshun throws her hands in the air and cries about the end of days if we simply want to make sure the people voting are who they say they are... AND we are willing to pay for them to get ID to do so. Direckshun, you willing to let tax dollars pay for gun registrations for those too poor to afford them?

Thank You JonesCrusher for pointing out what a complete failure in logical consistency Direckshun is now faced with.

PS The key here is... Direkshun, it's obvious you don't equate the right to bear arms with the right to vote... even though the Supreme Court and most Americans do.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:50 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
It's not our fault that liberal idiots have made a mockery of the justice system.
I'm afraid you're going to have to explain.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:51 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I wouldn't.
Would you consider gun-related deaths to be a very serious issue to address?
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:52 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frazod View Post
American population (rounded): 313,000,000

High-end of Direckshun's gun deaths per year - 12,000

Percentage of Americans killed by guns - 0.03858%.

OH SHIT WE'RE DOOMED
Would you consider gun-related deaths to be a serious issue worth addressing?
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm afraid you're going to have to explain.
Really? Do you actually believe that most gun violence in this country is perpetrated by whacked-out loners against grade schoolers?
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
That said...people continuously trying to blame gun manufacturers for gun violence. Which is equally ludicrous, they are only building what we want to buy.
I don't think a single soul is blaming gun manufacturers.

I might be wrong on that score if I misunderstood you.

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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
One of the greatest problems that we have as a society is our love for double standards. You can't go around discriminating against other people because you don't like them and then yell when they turn around and do the same to you. This is a major issue regardless of if you are left, right, up or down.
That said, this is spot on.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Would you consider gun-related deaths to be a serious issue worth addressing?
Sure. I'm all for arming school guards and teachers.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:57 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Would you consider gun-related deaths to be a serious issue worth addressing?
Would you consider voter fraud a serious issue worth addressing?

The difference between us is I'm not a partisan hypocrite. I agree that gun violence is a serious issue... but not serious enough to warrant violating a Constitutional right. I do however think it is serious enough to warrant reasonable restrictions (most of which are in place) and to look into (as Fraz points out) training and arming more civilians such as teachers and security personal. You, on the other hand, won't budge on voter id an inch... basically you are equivalent to a gun rights nutjub that wants ZERO restrictions on gun ownership. No background checks, no reasonable restrictions on automatic weapons, etc etc...
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:59 PM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
NICE! /thread over and Direkshun shown to be a complete hypocrite!

So let's recap...

Voting = protected right of every American
Bear Arms = protected right of every American

YET... most of us here are fine with a few reasonable restrictions on gun ownership (background checks, waiting periods, etc) and old lady Direckshun throws her hands in the air and cries about the end of days if we simply want to make sure the people voting are who they say they are... AND we are willing to pay for them to get ID to do so. Direckshun, you willing to let tax dollars pay for gun registrations for those too poor to afford them?

Thank You JonesCrusher for pointing out what a complete failure in logical consistency Direckshun is now faced with.

PS The key here is... Direkshun, it's obvious you don't equate the right to bear arms with the right to vote... even though the Supreme Court and most Americans do.
I believe that both are Constitutionally protected rights.

I also believe that both should be subject to various regulations.

But not all regulations are created equal.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:00 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frazod View Post
Really? Do you actually believe that most gun violence in this country is perpetrated by whacked-out loners against grade schoolers?
I don't.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:02 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
Sure. I'm all for arming school guards and teachers.
Exactly, so we're both on board that there needs to be wholesale gun reform.

I'm in favor of addressing both the mindsets of the people that perpetrate gun violence as well as erecting barriers that would make gun violence more difficult to commit.

You believe in arming grade school teachers.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:02 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Would you consider voter fraud a serious issue worth addressing?

The difference between us is I'm not a partisan hypocrite. I agree that gun violence is a serious issue... but not serious enough to warrant violating a Constitutional right. I do however think it is serious enough to warrant reasonable restrictions (most of which are in place) and to look into (as Fraz points out) training and arming more civilians such as teachers and security personal. You, on the other hand, won't budge on voter id an inch... basically you are equivalent to a gun rights nutjub that wants ZERO restrictions on gun ownership. No background checks, no reasonable restrictions on automatic weapons, etc etc...
I believe that both are Constitutionally protected rights.

I also believe that both should be subject to various regulations.

But not all regulations are created equal.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:03 PM   #448
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I think this should be addressed at the state level—including additional/newer school security.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't.
Are you sure? You certainly don't seem to assign much blame or responsibility to the people who actually commit most violent crime - known members of criminal organizations who regularly filter in and out jail because *sniffle* we have to be concerned with their human rights and have a responsibility to rehabilitate them and return them to society where they will now magically lead responsible lives.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:06 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I believe that both are Constitutionally protected rights.

I also believe that both should be subject to various regulations.

But not all regulations are created equal.
You disingenuous little so and so... no, you pretty much support a ****ing free for all when it comes to voting... your sole argument in that regard has been ..."well, voter fraud is only shown to happen xxx amount of the time and that is such a small number that it is basically nonexistent".. well, gun homicide has been shown to carry similar if not less statistically significant weight... why isn't it too "basically non-existent" to you?

Why is it so easy to ignore one and not the other?

With voter fraud you argued that the system wasn't broke because it simply didn't happen very often... so why change anything. Here we have the exact same situation yet you are crying for change. BTW I agree that we should make some changes... I just can't see how YOU can make that argument after your screaming about voter ID changes.

You haven't addressed this in any meaningful way because you know (or you should) that in this case you are a complete hypocrite.
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