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Old 12-19-2012, 12:43 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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A gun control law that would actually work?

I'd say so.

A rundown of the idea:
  • A ban on firearms -- rifle or pistol -- that can hold more than six bullets.
  • A ban on firearms with detachable magazines.
Aggressive measures, sure. But one that would considerably slow down future rampages.

I don't know if that'd include buybacks on those kinds of firearms already out in the market, but to piss off the absolute maximum of the anti-gun control folks among us, let's go with that.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...y-work/266342/

A Gun Control Law That Would Actually Work
By Robert Wright
Dec 17 2012, 10:03 AM ET Comment

The AR-15 is getting its fifteen minutes of fame. Whole articles in major newspapers are devoted to the rifle that Adam Lanza used in the Newtown shooting, as the nation begins to debate restoring the ban on "assault weapons."

But the assault weapons issue is a red herring.

First of all, there's no clear and simple definition of an assault weapon, and this fact has in the past led to incoherent regulation. The defunct 1994 assault weapons ban, according to the Wall Street Journal, outlawed "semiautomatic rifles that accepted detachable magazines and possessed at least two other characteristics, including a protruding pistol grip, flash suppressor or threaded barrel or a folding or telescoping stock." Um, how important was it whether the gun Lanza used had a "flash suppressor"? And, by sacrificing that and a few other such features ("protruding pistol grip," etc.), a mass killer gets to keep his detachable magazine, for rapid reloading?

Second, focusing on assault weapons--or even rifles in general--distracts from the important issue of magazine capacity in pistols. It's true that if you had taken away Lanza's AR-15, he wouldn't have had a rifle that could fire 30 rounds without reloading. However, he was also carrying two pistols--a Glock 20 and a Sig Sauer P226--each of which can fire 15 rounds without reloading. And, actually, since two pistols are less conspicuous than a rifle, they're a more effective way to get 30 rounds of continuous fire into lots of public settings.

Imagine the following world, which it's within our power to create: It's illegal to sell or possess a firearm--rifle or pistol--that can hold more than six bullets. And it's illegal to sell or possess a firearm with a detachable magazine. In other words, once a shooter exhausted the six rounds, he couldn't just snap in another six-round magazine; he'd have to put six more bullets in the gun one by one.

In this world, a significant number of those 20 Newtown first graders would almost certainly be alive. Lanza reportedly fired six bullets from his AR-15 just to get inside the locked school. So, in the alternative universe I just described, he would then have to more or less exhaust one of his two pistols to kill the principal and school psychologist he encountered after entering. At that point, as he headed for the classrooms, he'd have six more rapid-fire bullets left, after which he'd have to reload his guns bullet by bullet.

Is there a single legitimate use of firearms that requires more than six rounds of continuous fire? Certainly not hunting. And not any sort of self-defense that's realistically imaginable, unless you've recently antagonized a Mexican drug cartel.

As the gun lobby gears up to battle proposals such as this one, you'll hear a lot about the fact that mass killings are actually a drop in the bucket of total homicides. True. But mass killings take a disproportionate toll on the nation psychologically and spiritually. Thirty individual people dying in isolated assaults in various cities is a horrible thing, but it doesn't terrify our children, and it doesn't turn our schools into bunkers.

The sort of law I'm describing would make lots of current guns illegal. (I actually own one.) So you'd have to phase the law in over a couple of years, and, to overcome political resistance, you might have to compensate gun owners for surrendering newly illegal guns--or for having them altered to comply with the law. And, even then, the resistance would be very, very strong. It might even turn out to be insurmountable. But if the question is "What could we do that would greatly reduce the scale of mass killings while preserving the right of Americans to use firearms for legitimate purposes," this, it seems to me, is a real answer.

Update, 12/17 4:25 p.m.: More than one commenter has noted that most handguns currently manufactured would be illegal under my proposal. True. (As I noted in the final paragraph, I own such a gun.) And on Twitter, @drgitlin has noted something I didn't realize: A revolver, which would be clearly legal under my proposal, can be loaded fairly quickly with a "speedloader." Well, if speedloaders are indeed so speedy that they're the functional equivalent of detachable magazines, they could be banned. And as for the fact that most or all non-revolver pistols would be illegal under my proposal: You'd be surprised how fast gun manufacturers would fill this void by designing semi-automatics that could hold a maximum of six bullets and could only be loaded one bullet at a time. I'm not saying this makes my proposal politically feasible; the number of existing owners of conventional semi-automatic pistols (i.e. semi-automatics with detachable magazines) might create insurmountable resistance to it, as I noted in the final paragraph. Still, governments do have the power to ban things that exist, and in this case creating substitutes that complied with the new law would be very doable. And, even if banning detachable magazines in pistols does prove politically infeasible, that doesn't mean we can't make real progress by doing the politically easier thing of banning all magazines, for both rifles and handguns, that hold more than six bullets. And it's a trivial matter for manufacturers to create magazines that would fit existing guns and comply with that law. In any event, we shouldn't be fooled into thinking that another ban on "assault weapons" is by itself significant progress.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:06 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbaljitsu View Post

30 million x $500 = 15 BILLION DOLLARS
The rich definitely have that kind of money.

I don't have that kind of money.

I think we can develop a plan from my strategy.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:19 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbaljitsu View Post
Direckshun:

I noted earlier that your plan would cost at least 15 Billion dollars.

You might have thought I was joking, so I figured I would show my work.

Your plan calls for a massive "buyback" (I don't know how you buy back something that you never owned, but whatever).

Australia is the best example of where a "buyback" took place.

Australia purchased between 600,000-650,000 firearms, and that represented about 20% of the firearms in the country. Australia had about 3 million total firearms. Australia targeted firearms in a less expansive way than you. For instance, Australia essentially banned semi-automatic long guns, but not handguns that held more than six rounds. It did not ban detachable magazines in pistols.

Conservatively, the United States of America has 200 million firearms. Several commentators have estimated upwards of 350 million firearms. For the sake of argument, we will use the 200 million figure from the FBI.

Australia paid "market value" for all the firearms it purchased. It spent a total of $500 million on the 600,000 guns, or about $833 per firearm.

For the sake of argument, lets say that the average gun in the United States is worth $500. (This is almost certainly low. Particularly if you are targeting semi-automatics which cost more money).

There are Constitutional reasons why any "buyback" would need to pay a fair market value.

Assuming that the United States has a similar prevalence of semi-automatic weapons as Australia (it is in fact much higher) that means you are buying back 40 million firearms. But hell, we are going to get to an inconceivable number anyway, so let's be as generous as possible to your stupid plan. Let's say only 15% of weapons apply (It is probably closer to 75). That is 30 million firearms.

30 million x $500 = 15 BILLION DOLLARS
This is an excellent post -- I'd say you were pretty low on the figures. My math is that there'd be about 40 million guns needing to be bought back, and I'm comfortable going with your 833 figure.

I'm comfortable with this plan, regardless of the pricetag, as a one-time measure to eliminate assault weapons from civilian markets.

I don't think because it'd be hard to do! is reason enough to not go down this path.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:31 PM   #198
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Unless you plan on limiting LEO/military to the same restrictions, this will fail the constitutional test, while the last awb wasn't challenged on that matter any current one will be. One of the consequences of that will be the re-evaluation of the other bans in effect('34,'68,'86,etc) that might not work out so well for the gun-grabbers.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:33 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is an excellent post -- I'd say you were pretty low on the figures. My math is that there'd be about 40 million guns needing to be bought back, and I'm comfortable going with your 833 figure.

I'm comfortable with this plan, regardless of the pricetag, as a one-time measure to eliminate assault weapons from civilian markets.

I don't think because it'd be hard to do! is reason enough to not go down this path.
How about the deaths of millions of people on both sides because few if any will be willing to give up their assault rifles for any AMOUNT OF MONEY?
You ok with that? You going to get off your lazy ass & volunteer to go door to door & do the confiscating?

Are you willing to put your life on the line for what you believe?
I am.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:34 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm comfortable with this plan, regardless of the pricetag,
Of course you are. You have no problem with massive wasteful spending of other people's money.
You have no understanding of economics or the economy. Try putting your money where your mouth is for once.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Are you willing to put your life on the line for what you believe?
I am.
Well said,

I have before and will do again.
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:39 PM   #202
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We are so divided in this country that a 12/21/2012 reset would be welcome.


I wonder which group of people would survive.......
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Old 12-21-2012, 01:59 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notorious View Post
We are so divided in this country that a 12/21/2012 reset would be welcome.

I wonder which group of people would survive.......
I hadn't considered a post-Mayan apocalypse as a reason to own a semi-automatic gun.

Thank you for introducing that to the conversation.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:12 PM   #204
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I've purchase all of my guns over the years from private individuals requiring no background checks. I don't have CCP because I don't want to be on that list either. I won a Ruger LC9 in a raffle last year and gave it to my mother with the condition she take handgun safety course but the firearm is registered to her.

My point is I will never freely turn over my firearms regardless of the law.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post

Are you willing to put your life on the line for what you believe?
I am.
You're much more likely to be high on some tiny train. Lets not pretend like you are some tough guy.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:27 PM   #206
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I know a gun control that would work? Commit Obama and his minions. They need mental health treatment.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #207
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I know a gun control that would work? Commit Obama and his minions. They need mental health treatment.
Commit half the country.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:51 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
Commit half the country.
Starting with you soccer mom
& no one needs to be a tough guy to clean your clock.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by LiveSteam View Post
Starting with you soccer mom
& no one needs to be a tough guy to clean your clock.
You're all talk.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:43 AM   #210
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Where's patteau? I think he's the foremost expert on BEP's love affair with made-up quotes.
And you just made this up by using a plural. It was ONE quote and he was not entirely right.


Now as to your claim...check out fascist Feinstein on this quote:

"If I could have gotten another 51 votes in the Senate for an outright ban, picking up everyone of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done that. But I could not do that; the votes were not there." ~ Senator Dianne Feinstein, February 5, 1995, CBS's 60 Minutes

Yeah it's made-up!

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