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Old 12-16-2012, 11:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:23 PM   #931
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Arguing that Western civilization is not applicable because the Swiss often aren't doesn't make a lick of sense.
I wouldn't think you could possibly be this ****ing stupid but I just reread your posts from last night and man, you just aren't a very bright person. If you can;t see the logic here you really aren't worth debating. I'll give you one last shot. The Swiss simply prove that YOUR premise has no basis in reality. You are claiming that all Western countries have basically the same cultures and yet we have 12X the gun violence. Your then go on to state that this is because we have ready access to guns. Therefore (now try to follow along) if any other Western nation had easy access to guns it too would have high gun violence. YET the Swiss show that to be untrue. So... your premise is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Now, again, I know there's no doubt that Business Insider would have failed "every logic class" you "have ever taken," but my arguments against Switzerland are hardly unique.
No there are plenty of other idiots in the world... you are not unique there. This article is awesome in every way except its completely wrong conclusions. The author, much like you, is blinded by his belief driven agenda and fails to take into account the true import of the facts he spouts. He points out that the Swiss can't be compared to America because they are so different from America. (Militia state, less population, less poverty, etc) Ok, fine it isn't the same as my cultural argument but close enough. Guess what, idiot? I can point out how those factors or similar ones are true for a comparison of every single Western country and America. So by the EXACT same logic your friend in the article is using.... we can't compare compare those countries to America either. The fact that you can't see this and yet keep spewing nonsense is making you look more and more like someone who honestly doesn't have the capacity to think for themselves. At this point you have proven yourself to be either incredibly stupid or intellectually dishonest.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:47 PM   #932
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
No, the answer I gave was that Switzerland was a country club -- it has 9 million people, and is astoundingly wealthy.
yeah I mixed up what you were responding to there.

but I'll address this anyway... so the Swiss are an outlier because they only have 9 million people and less poverty. So... let's look at other Western nations and find how many are even CLOSE to the US on either of those figures and throw the rest out of your data set. Fair? That's the rule you are applying here, shouldn't you be consistent with it? Or is it simply a rule of convenience to eliminate the pesky Swiss who prove your premise to be bullshit.


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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You actually didn't. Not even close, really. You offered a bullshit line in the sand ("people directly affected by gun violence") which isn't even meaningfully measured, without explaining why it must be people directly affected.

As I said, we've all been affected and mourned Newtown, but in your eyes our mourning doesn't count because we're not closely related to the victims.
And as I said, just because it makes a lot of people sad doesn't make it a ****ing epidemic. By your logic, when Princess Di died, there was an epidemic of Royalty deaths. Why? Because EVERYONE was sad about it! Once again you are showing yourself to be INCREDIBLY stupid here. I gave a line in the sand that makes sense and is a hard measurable metric. With that said, I don't have to defend it, you simply asked me what MY metric was. Now, when asked for yours, you give weasel answers that have zero meaning. I want a NUMBER that shows we no longer have a "gun violence" epidemic. You can't just say it's an epidemic without defining it, asshole.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:51 PM   #933
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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
No "assault" rifles used in Sandy Hook.
Yes, but Direckshun doesn't care, he wants ALL semi-automatic weapons BANNED.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:58 PM   #934
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Damn, Kyle - you stayed up all night on Christmas arguing with this douche?

I certainly hope you were doing something worthwhile between posts.
Yep, I was workin and wrapping gifts. And now I'm off to do Xmas with the family, someone else will have to pick on our resident MSNBC parrot for awhile.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:01 PM   #935
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Yep, I was workin and wrapping gifts. And now I'm off to do Xmas with the family, someone else will have to pick on our resident MSNBC parrot for awhile.
You have too much fun kicking the shit out of the short bus people here~
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:36 PM   #936
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:47 PM   #937
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It starts at home. Teach your kids that THIS IS WRONG.

Or teach your kids the difference between "real" and "Nerf"
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:59 AM   #938
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So, I had it all planned to go out to my friend's farm, and he and another friend were going to show me how to shoot. I texted him yesterday morning, and he said it was too cold, and that he and his family would probably nap that afternoon. I decided to stay in and watch movies. He texts me later to say he's mad at me, because him and our other friend ended up shooting his mom's 9mm. WTF? I was so excited to go out there and try it. He tells me no, and then it's my fault for deciding to stay in?

So, no shooting for me. I was really looking forward to it, too.

And, I know, good story...lol.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:41 AM   #939
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As long as we live in a culture that thinks violence is awesome and sex is evil, we're gonna have violence problems.

Most in the US would show a kid a dismembered body on TV before letting them see a breast on TV. It's really weird if you think about it.

I'm not blaming TV either... I'm blaming our culture for having stupid standards.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:57 AM   #940
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
So, I had it all planned to go out to my friend's farm, and he and another friend were going to show me how to shoot. I texted him yesterday morning, and he said it was too cold, and that he and his family would probably nap that afternoon. I decided to stay in and watch movies. He texts me later to say he's mad at me, because him and our other friend ended up shooting his mom's 9mm. WTF? I was so excited to go out there and try it. He tells me no, and then it's my fault for deciding to stay in?

So, no shooting for me. I was really looking forward to it, too.

And, I know, good story...lol.
Bah....A 9mm is weak sauce.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:59 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
As long as we live in a culture that thinks violence is awesome and sex is evil, we're gonna have violence problems.

Most in the US would show a kid a dismembered body on TV before letting them see a breast on TV. It's really weird if you think about it.

I'm not blaming TV either... I'm blaming our culture for having stupid standards.
The Id would tell you the reason for the guns is to get pussy to begin with so throw that in on top of it.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:00 AM   #942
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British violence increasing

UK calls for ban on kitchen knives.


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A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.

None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.

The researchers said a short pointed knife may cause a substantial superficial wound if used in an assault - but is unlikely to penetrate to inner organs. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm
Govts will never be able to curb violence. This is a cultural phenomena, imo. Of course it doesn't help when your people think they are owed so many things from others, because that too is using the force and violence of govt to get what you want.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:04 AM   #943
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
UK calls for ban on kitchen knives.




Govts will never be able to curb violence. This is a cultural phenomena, imo. Of course it doesn't help when your people think they are owed so many things from others, because that too is using the force and violence of govt to get what you want.
Holy crap. That reads like an article in The Onion...
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:20 AM   #944
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Holy crap. That reads like an article in The Onion...
Seriously. My first thought was "this can't be real."

I'll bet Direckshun approves of this. He probably wants the government to seize my steak knives, the bayonet for my M1 and my Conan sword!
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:33 AM   #945
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
UK calls for ban on kitchen knives.
Not "UK calls for"
"A team from West Middlesex University Hospital"

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cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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