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Old 12-16-2012, 10:35 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:24 AM   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
If the argument you're attempting to make is that all guns are as dangerous as semiautos, you're in left field.
He's right and you don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:44 AM   #992
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what about revolvers that can be shot as fast as semi-autos?
....ban them too?
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:53 AM   #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
EVERY time you post this, it's pretty obvious that you are conceding that you are too ****ing stupid to respond with substance.
I've long had zero interest in endlessly rebutting purposefully false mischaracterizations of my point of view on this forum. I've humored you the first few times you did it in this thread, but I'm now up to my quota in correcting hilariously dumb strawman arguments.

If you want to make really dumb claims about what I've said, I can't change that. That's on you.

If you want to have a conversation about things I actually am arguing, we have a thread you can use.

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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Once again, you shy away from the topic and instead pretend the analogy is bad. you have yet to explain AT ALL why it is a bad analogy.
I also have no interest in going 20 rounds on a bullshit analogy of Saul Good proportions.

I know you do, I know all conservatives who've ever proposed a dumb analogy love nothing more than to go 20 rounds defending them, but I have bigger fish to fry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Tell us at what level of reduction will it no longer be an epidemic? Obviously .0037% is too high for you, explain what is acceptable to no longer call it an epidemic.
The standard I shoot for is to put us on par with the rest of the Western world with gun related violence and deaths.

We have the resources and ability to make this happen. There is no reason for us not to make this happen.

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You ASKED ME what would it take for me to call it an epidemic. I picked a metric that made sense to me.
The continuing problem, one that has plagued your so-called metric from the start, is that you haven't explained why that metric makes sense to you.

I've asked for it repeatedly. You've repeatedly neglected to answer. I'm pretty sure we both know why.

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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Those are complaints by people just like you.
The world isn't binary, compadre. Slate, the Times, Forbes, the AMA, etc... and there are others, but I highlight these four because they are each significantly different sources with different editorial boards with different agendas, and they're all seeing the same thing.

This is what some folks who mourn the conservative movement mean, when they accuse it of suffering from "epistemic closure." The inability to accept new information and adjust yourself to conform to reality -- it is a curse of the current GOP, and is becoming to enrapture the NRA as well.

To simply dismiss all these sources (and many more like them for years now) as "just like Direckshun" simply because I had to gall to absorb what it being widely observed is to stick your head in the sand.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:57 AM   #994
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You are too ****ing stupid to even have a discussion with. I am getting tired of having to dumb down every ****ing post so that you can follow along.
You just argued that police groups aren't offering opinions, they're conducting research.

That's so ass-backwards, AC, I'm wondering where you even conceived the thought.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:58 AM   #995
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You stated...

and I responded trying to illustrate YET AGAIN that the term "assault weapon" refers to mostly cosmetic features and those same weapons are no more deadly than their sport equivalents.
Again, I'm more interested in semiautos as a whole, but I am comfortable starting with assault weapons since that is a path that is politically feasible in 2012.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #996
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Hey Direckshun answer this question with a solid measurable equation or answer or whatever you want to call it. Your answer about how people are feeling or how they are emotional or however you stated it is not a way to measure and you have sidestepped the question multiple times. Just answer the question.

I want to give you the definition of what an epidemic is:
An epidemic (from the Greek: epi upon; demos, people) is usually defined as a large-scale, temporary increase in the occurrence of a disease in a community or region which is clearly in excess of normal expectancy.

I don't know the statistics about gun violence but has it spiked recently?
Mass shootings have, yes. And they are indicative of a gun culture that is slaying tens of thousands of Americans at rates that are unheardof in the rest of the western world.

This is critical level shit. I would say this should be a primary area of policy because of how extreme American gun violence is.

The day, should it ever come, when it falls to levels on par with our Western compadres, I'll drop the gauntlet.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
He's right and you don't know what you're talking about.
Is your official position: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.

Needless to say, I disagree, if that is your position.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:02 PM   #998
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Is your official position: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.

Needless to say, I disagree, if that is your position.
Your opinion doesn't mean any thing to me, and most others reading along, because you don't know what your talking about.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:28 PM   #999
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Here are the facts, Mrs. Direckshun...

The 2nd exists so I have the right to protect myself from a tyranical government.
Our government currently is in the posession of firearms and weapons that no civilian will ever own.

Therefore, a 30 round clip is rather trivial compared to the firepower our government could unleash on the people.

when you quit politicizing the tragedies of people being killed by firearms and actually make a genuine effort to understand what the 2nd is about then you might start understanding what people are talking about.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:35 PM   #1000
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #1001
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Your opinion doesn't mean any thing to me, and most others reading along, because you don't know what your talking about.
True or false: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:02 PM   #1002
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
The 2nd exists so I have the right to protect myself from a tyranical government.
Our government currently is in the posession of firearms and weapons that no civilian will ever own.
If that is the case as the amendment is currently applied, is banning the ownership of grenade launchers unconstitutional?

Tanks?

Privately owned fighter jets?
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:11 PM   #1003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
True or false: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.
Name for me exactly what functional difference there is between an assault rifle and any other semi-automatic rifle of the same caliber that makes them "so much more dangerous".
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:15 PM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Name for me exactly what functional difference there is between an assault rifle and any other semi-automatic rifle of the same caliber that makes them "so much more dangerous".
You have yet to answer my question. We're starting to see the crease, are we not.

True or false: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:17 PM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You have yet to answer my question. We're starting to see the crease, are we not.

True or false: all guns are equally capable of spreading the same amount of death.
You've been dodging my question for the past several days.
Which has made it obvious you don't know what you're talking about, just parroting some party line rhetoric.
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