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Old 01-03-2013, 11:37 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The Debt Ceiling Approacheth

Now that the fiscal cliff has been turned into various cliffs over the entirety of 2013 (should be a fun year, gang...), we can turn our attention the the next one coming up.

In February, we face the sequester cliff, followed shortly by the debt ceiling.

For all intents and purposes, this thread will be used as a repository for both cliffs.

The debt ceiling, of course, has far graver consequences for both the country and the planet. Treasury adopted emergency funding measures about two weeks ago.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:02 PM   #31
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Dug this up from 2011.

I continue to believe that, to protect their right flanks, the GOP absolutely cannot negotiate on anything other than complete Democratic capitulation. They must be willing to cut the baby in half and default on America's debt. Anything less leaves them vulnerable in 2014 primaries.

I think it's clearly time for the White House to plan on invoking the 14th amendment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...XtjI_blog.html

The White House and the 14th Amendment: Why not?
By Felicia Sonmez
Jul 30, 2011 09:10 PM EDT

As negotiations on raising the debt ceiling go down to the wire and with no clear endgame in sight, the White House finds itself again tamping down suggestions by some Democrats on Capitol Hill that it invoke the 14th Amendment and raise the country’s borrowing limit without congressional approval.

From a political perspective, the 14th Amendment route would be an unprecedented one fraught with peril, as The Post’s Aaron Blake has detailed.

But the case could also be made that a congressional stalemate — followed by a unilateral move by the White House to prevent default — could present the best-case scenario for the president’s political fortunes.

Here’s a look at some of the possibilities if the debt-ceiling negotiations fail to produce a result.

Polls show Americans’ approval of Congress at only 18 percent, not far from its all-time low of 13 percent in December.

Obama’s approval has hit a new low, but it still remains more than double that of Congress, at 40 percent.

Leaders on Capitol Hill are united in their insistence that they do not see default as an option, a point reiterated by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) at a Saturday afternoon news conference.

Still, the path toward a compromise that can win passage in both chambers remains unclear, and the default deadline is just three days away. If the deadline were to loom with a deal not yet sealed, Obama could move to raise the debt ceiling on his own, casting himself as the “adult” in the room and making the case that Congress has become so paralyzed by partisanship that it has put the full faith and credit of the country at risk.

At that point, the biggest political questions would be: How would the public react? What would the parties do? And what action would the White House take?

Public reaction would hinge on the views Americans already hold of Congress and the White House. In Washington, each party has been preparing for weeks to blame the other for a potential default — and the finger-pointing would be certain to continue post-Aug. 2.

But outside the Beltway, polls show that views of who’s to blame would be mixed.

A failure by Congress to pass a deal would be likely to reflect poorly on the institution as a whole — an institution that, it’s worth bearing in mind, has been unable to resolve even the minor impasse that has led 4,000 workers to be furloughed in a partial shutdown of the Federal Aviation Administration. That standoff is now entering its second week.

The public’s response to a 14th Amendment move by the White House would also depend on the reactions of the political parties, both on and off Capitol Hill.

For Democrats, the question would be whether they would continue to work with Republicans on addressing the broader debt problem.

Democrats have already been giving Obama wiggle room on the 14th Amendment option by floating the idea as the debt deadline nears, and former president Bill Clinton gave Obama perhaps his most significant political cover when he said earlier this month that if he were the one in the White House, he would go ahead and raise the debt ceiling.

But if, after such a move, congressional Democrats abandoned any effort to tackle the country’s debt, they — as well as the White House — could face dire political consequences, as they would essentially be giving their blessing to a multitrillion-dollar hike in federal borrowing without any spending reforms.

For Republicans, the main question would be whether to seek to impeach Obama. Republicans would also face the choice of whether to focus on the constitutional argument (that Obama overstepped his executive authority), the reckless-spending argument (that Democrats are not serious about getting the country’s fiscal house in order) or perhaps both.

A move to impeach Obama would lead to a months-long political circus, the result of which is unpredictable. It could wind up either a benefit for Republicans (an opportunity to put the White House in the hot seat in the leadup to November 2012) or for Democrats (the effort could backfire among a public weary of partisan politics and concerned about the state of the economy).

The constitutional argument might serve to rally the Republican base — just as the congressional debate over Libya has most energized not moderate lawmakers but those on the far left and right.

But Congress’s response to the Libya debacle has also diluted somewhat both chambers’ ability to effectively challenge Obama’s executive authority. The House has given mixed message after mixed message on whether Obama should have consulted Congress on Libya, while the Senate has yet to take up a resolution on the matter at all since Obama committed U.S. troops to the conflict.

Add to that the fact that most Americans are concerned about the economy and not separation-of-powers issues, and it could make for a tough sell to the public at large.

On the spending issue, a unilateral debt-ceiling increase by Obama without any corresponding spending reforms would undercut Democrats’ message that they are serious about setting the country’s finances in order. That would be a net win for Republicans — especially those on the 2012 campaign trail.

That’s where the White House’s actions following up a 14th Amendment move would be key. A move to raise the debt ceiling through the end of 2012 would be less politically perilous if it were coupled with a serious attempt to create a deficit-reduction framework. But it wouldn’t be entirely without risk. And such a move would put the ball back in the court of congressional Republicans, who could argue that the White House’s move to raise the debt ceiling first and address spending reforms later reveals its priorities when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #32
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You're witnessing exactly why the debt ceiling is important and makes sense.

The simple fact we're talking about our debt is as a result part of the ceiling.
We've been talking about the debt since Day One of the Obama Presidency, have we not.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:06 PM   #33
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Obama just held the chance of going over 'the fiscal cliff' hostage unless taxes were increased on those making over $250K. If he didn't get what he wanted and sequestration occured and taxes were increased across the board, do you think he would blame himself?

How is that any different than what he is accusing the GOP of doing with the debt ceiling?
This is what happens when you set up cliff after cliff after cliff, brother.

Both sides can hold the economy hostage, and both sides do.

If you're coming out in favor of eradicating cliffs, I'm with you.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Correction--it should be an unnecessary devcie. But since our leaders can't do math, I appreciate that it is there.
What good has the debt ceiling done, in your opinion?

What bad has the debt ceiling done, in your opinion?
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:21 PM   #35
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so, again... it's all the republicans' faults and obama/the democrats have no culpability?

sure. go ahead and keep on believing the bullshit.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:25 PM   #36
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Crazy Nancy was on one of the Sunday morning shows today and stated that Democrats had already made cuts and will not discuss any new ones, non-negotiable
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:28 PM   #37
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
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The U.S. national debt comes out to about $16 trillion today. That's something.

But it's nothing compared to the extra $87 trillion in unfunded liabilities to Social Security, Medicare, and federal pensions. Here's how that works. If you add up all of the U.S. government's promises to pay retirement and health care benefits for the next 75 years and subtract the projected tax revenue dedicated to those programs over the next 75 years, there is a gap. A $87 trillion gap -- in addition to a $16 billion hole.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...illion/265644/
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:30 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
We've been talking about the debt since Day One of the Obama Presidency, have we not.
I wouldn't say that was true the first two years.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:56 PM   #39
donkhater donkhater is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
What good has the debt ceiling done, in your opinion?

What bad has the debt ceiling done, in your opinion?
The only good thing it has done has been to get some consessions on spending as ridiculously small and inept as they are. In the absence of a ceiling, what would ever motivate these two sides to even speak to one another? Hell, the Senate can't even be bothered to pass a budget.

It's gotten to the point of being criminal and treasonous.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Correction--it should be an unnecessary devcie. But since our leaders can't do math, I appreciate that it is there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Exactly.
You're saying we should just stop paying our bills. Idiotic.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:31 PM   #41
donkhater donkhater is offline
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You're saying we should just stop paying our bills. Idiotic.
And spending the obscene amounts over revenues isn't idiotic? Don't you realize this last 'balanced solution' fixed about 6% of the budget deficit? If Obama and the Dems got DOUBLE of what they wanted, it may have gotten us 25% of the way there?

It's idiotic that our leaders responsible for the fiscal well being need this type of drastic maneuver to get anything remotely resembling a cut instead of just decreases in the baseline budget increases.

I'm not sure why you think trillion dollar deficits are OK. Reagan's relatively paltry deficits were criminal, but today's deficits are necessary? What do you think it's going to take before roughly 30% of federal expenditures are dealt with?
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:38 PM   #42
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And spending the obscene amounts over revenues isn't idiotic? Don't you realize this last 'balanced solution' fixed about 6% of the budget deficit? If Obama and the Dems got DOUBLE of what they wanted, it may have gotten us 25% of the way there?

It's idiotic that our leaders responsible for the fiscal well being need this type of drastic maneuver to get anything remotely resembling a cut instead of just decreases in the baseline budget increases.

I'm not sure why you think trillion dollar deficits are OK. Reagan's relatively paltry deficits were criminal, but today's deficits are necessary? What do you think it's going to take before roughly 30% of federal expenditures are dealt with?
All of your post is a seperate issue. The money has been spent--authorized by the very Congress now saying they won't pay the bill when it is due.
This is about paying bills due on money already spent. End of story.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:42 PM   #43
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All of your post is a seperate issue. The money has been spent--authorized by the very Congress now saying they won't pay the bill when it is due.
This is about paying bills due on money already spent. End of story.
So the entire budget is credit payments? Huh, didn't know that.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:47 PM   #44
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If the American public saw our financial statements in the same way that public companies report their pension liabilities, it would clearly see the magnitude of danger represented by the future borrowings that these liabilities to an aging population imply—borrowing on a scale that would not only bankrupt the programs themselves but the entire federal government. And to a worrying extent, we are locked into continued escalation by the fact that social insurance programs, as well as other mandatory programs, carry payments that are in accordance with automatic formulas written into law and are not subject to an annual spending limit. Today, less than 40 percent of our budget is actually decided by Congress and the president, down from 62 percent 40 years ago.

Add in the fact that the Federal Housing Authority confronts a $16.3 billion net deficit after its latest audit that may force a taxpayer bailout for the first time in its 78-year history. And just four years from now, in 2016, the Disability Insurance trust fund will be fully depleted.

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:51 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
And spending the obscene amounts over revenues isn't idiotic? Don't you realize this last 'balanced solution' fixed about 6% of the budget deficit? If Obama and the Dems got DOUBLE of what they wanted, it may have gotten us 25% of the way there?

It's idiotic that our leaders responsible for the fiscal well being need this type of drastic maneuver to get anything remotely resembling a cut instead of just decreases in the baseline budget increases.

I'm not sure why you think trillion dollar deficits are OK. Reagan's relatively paltry deficits were criminal, but today's deficits are necessary? What do you think it's going to take before roughly 30% of federal expenditures are dealt with?
Reasoning with the far left is pointless. I have been scolded several times for saying the government is broke. I have had it stated very clearly to me by these idiots that it is not broke because the government can still raise taxes, print money and get loans the fact there is not enough money to tax along with the fact printing money and taking on more loans spells disaster. Trying to reason with these people is not worth the effort. They are not capable of thinking for themselves, and rely on Barry's ministry of truth for their opinions~
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