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Old 01-11-2013, 03:09 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Question for the pro-life crowd...

I've been reading a lot about abortion this week, particularly a lot from the pro-life perspective about right to life and all that jazz. I've been doing a lot of reflection on the topic, so I was hoping I could get some earnest reflection back from you.

I am pro-choice, of course, but I see the logic of the pro-life argument, even as I disagree with it.

One major issue I've with the pro-life crowd, however, is that this crowd almost always tends to be particularly conservative and anti-government. Which, to my mind, creates a practical issue with your position.

Now, I know what you're thinking, and no, I'm not going where you think -- I don't like argument often made by pro-choicers that "conservatives are supposed to be the small government party, yet here they are supporting governmental power over every woman's medical decision" because, while I think that's a fair point, I think you could easily argue that most people have exceptions to their ideologies; that's just the way people work. It's a complex world, and exceptions reign -- if I'm a hardcore conservative, I think it's still reasonable for me to support a ban on abortion due to the intensity and importance of the issue, even if it might conflict with my otherwise stout anti-government views. So I don't adopt that argument.

Here's my big hang-up with the conservative pro-life position:

A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Most fetuses who are aborted for non-medical reasons are most likely being aborted because their potential families do not want them for personal or even economic reasons. I'm not excusing this, but it is what it is. Forcing them to be born with an abortion ban puts them in these shit situations, and it's going to lead to a greater possibility of poor education, poverty, and crime than those who are born to families that actually wanted them.

Other times, they'll be effectively orphaned as the families who don't want them leave them in the street or put them up for adoption. Some will be adopted, but adopting is an insanely hard practice (and it should be -- you don't want to risk exploitation of these children), it's expensive, and it's nowhere remotely close to the rate of the children available for adoption -- and that's right now, without an abortion ban.

There's also the education perspective, for instance. As it stands now, most conservatives would probably side with getting rid of the Department of Education and embracing fully private schools. That puts innocent children whose only crime was to come out of the wrong vagina at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to being the properly-adjusted productive soul that pro-lifers believe every soul should be.

So my question to the conservative pro-lifers among us:

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answers.

I know this is an abortion thread, but my hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:14 PM   #16
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
Conservatives typically believe that protecting people from other people is an appropriate role of government. They view the unborn as a separate human life, and therefore government has the role to protect it from the mother who may want to "murder" it.

They do not believe that protecting people from themselves is a proper role of government. Welfare is the government protecting people from themselves.

Hopefully that clears it up for you.
This is a thoughtful answer, but before I respond, I have to ask: are you a pro-life conservative?
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:08 PM   #17
ClevelandBronco ClevelandBronco is offline
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You want to murder your kid, murder your kid. You're exactly the kind of person I don't want having kids anyway.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
You want to murder your kid, murder your kid. You're exactly the kind of person I don't want having kids anyway.
My hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:42 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I don't give a **** about abortion. You want to have one, have one. If you don't, don't. It continues to amaze me that with all the serious problems this country is facing right now that anybody gives a crap about this bullshit way or another. Same with gay marriage. Don't care about either issue, tired of hearing about both. Why can't people just mind their own goddamn business?
The problem is that people are trying to take away the right to do either. That's why they're still important issues.

They wouldn't have to be, though, if the right cut out their bullshit and let people who "want to have one, have one."
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frazod View Post
I don't give a **** about abortion. You want to have one, have one. If you don't, don't. It continues to amaze me that with all the serious problems this country is facing right now that anybody gives a crap about this bullshit way or another. Same with gay marriage. Don't care about either issue, tired of hearing about both. Why can't people just mind their own goddamn business?
Pretty much how I feel. However, when the liberals start talking gun homicide numbers, I don't mind throwing abortion numbers back at them.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban...
I have no such dream. Kill away.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is a thoughtful answer, but before I respond, I have to ask: are you a pro-life conservative?


She's a libertarian.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:53 AM   #23
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If you're not ready for kids, then you need to be responsible and have safe sex. Condom, contraceptive etc. I don't think abortion should be used as a "tool" for taking an easy way out from making a bad decision. It's not fair to the child that nature took it's course because of the decision the male/female had made. That's just my personal opinion on it. Though ultimately it's a woman's decision I would guess.

This isn't a religous issue or a political issue. Government doesn't need to stick it's nose into this just like they don't need to stick their noses into gay marriage. They have other (major) shit to worry about like our economy/money supply...ya know...things that actually matter to the general public. If a woman decides to get an abortion...fine that's really her decision, but I sure as hell don't agree w/ it but ultimately it's neither of mine or your business. It's common sense. There are certain things in life that if you choose wrong, you must face the consequences and accept responsibility of your actions.

The only way I'd support abortion is during situations that involve rape or if it's medically necessary to save the mother from harm.

**And it really just boils down to this...The generation of the past 30 yrs or so just doesn't want to take responsibility for themselves, they just want their parents/the state or someone else to take care of their problems.


And adding on to my personal beliefs on the subject...there are many adoptions agencies if that person isn't ready/able to take care of that child they can put them up for adoption...but usually the case is after 9months that mother usually changes her mind because she naturally develops a bond w/ that child and usually her heart won't want to give it up because it's one of her own.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:10 AM   #24
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I think abortion is a decision between a woman, her doctor, her God, and to the man involved to a lessor extent. I don't believe in abortions on demand or the public paying for it in general. I know there are far too many variables for the government to be able to write a bill to address the issue intelligently so I'm okay with it's being "legal" while not supporting abortion. Obamacare is another example of the government wanting to create legislation that is far too complex and variable to do so and other than general guidelines and they should out of it.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:26 AM   #25
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
I have no such dream. Kill away.
You are not pro-life?
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #26
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Riddle me this.

Why do so many who support abortion argue so hard against executing murdering, criminal assholes with no value to society?

I don't believe in abortion personally, but if you want to do it, it's your conscience and your soul, not mine. I also strongly believe if you have a tax payer funded abortion, even one time it should come with a mandatory sterilization. If you have 2 under any circumstances...same thing.

I also think any man who fathers children with 2 or more women out of wedlock should get snipped.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
Riddle me this.

Why do so many who support abortion argue so hard against executing murdering, criminal assholes with no value to society?

I don't believe in abortion personally, but if you want to do it, it's your conscience and your soul, not mine. I also strongly believe if you have a tax payer funded abortion, even one time it should come with a mandatory sterilization. If you have 2 under any circumstances...same thing.

I also think any man who fathers children with 2 or more women out of wedlock should get snipped.
That has always confused me. The left will argue passionately how wrong killing is while trying to save the lives of merciless monsters guilty of rape and murder yet not even blink an eye at a 3rd trimester abortion~
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is a thoughtful answer, but before I respond, I have to ask: are you a pro-life conservative?
I consider myself a pro-life conservative, however I do not believe life begins at conception. I believe that life begins with neurological activity, and that an unborn life deserves equal protection under the constitution. However, I don't believe the federal regulation is the correct route to solving this issue. I do believe that no federal money should be sent to companies that provide abortions, because funds are fungible, and therefore my tax dollars are being used to pay for abortion.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:35 PM   #29
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She's a libertarian.
I'm definitely a male. I am libertarian-leaning, but I would consider myself more of a Classical Liberal than a libertarian.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:41 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
You are not pro-life?
Not politically or legally.
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