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View Poll Results: Is the battle for gay rights a civil rights battle?
Yes 32 48.48%
No 33 50.00%
maybe with some disclaimers below 1 1.52%
put me dow for the GAZ option 0 0%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2013, 08:34 PM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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Is the battle for gay rights a civil rights battle?

From Obama's inaugural speech.

"We, the people, declare today that the most evident of truths that all of us are created equal is the star that guides us still; just as it guided our forebears through Seneca Falls, and Selma, and Stonewall ... Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well."

Today Obama placed an original place for the battle for gay civil rights, Stonewall along side the same original battleground's for women's rights(Seneca Falls) and African-American rights(Selma).

So the poll question is............

Is the battle for gay rights a civil rights battle?
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:00 PM   #151
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Quite frankly given the virtually crazy group of nutjobs in DC I expected this to be 5 yes and 50 no.
Two guys getting married = good.
Owning a gun = bad.

Nutjobs indeed.

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Old 01-22-2013, 09:08 PM   #152
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Two guys getting married = good.
Owning a gun = bad.

Nutjobs indeed.

I own a really big gun
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:21 PM   #153
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I own a really big gun
I have friends with really really big guns.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:14 PM   #154
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I own a really big gun
I own a pile of them BFD. They are fun to occasionally play with thats about it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:50 AM   #155
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The root word of civil comes from the latin "civis" which means "citizen."

Whatever the battle for whatever the set of "rights," it's a civil rights battle - a battle over what rights a citizen has.

The right to copulate with little boys is a civil rights battle. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't change the fundamental nature of what kind of battle it is (ie. rights for citizens).

Anyone who says the battle for gay rights isn't a civil rights battle are not only wrong, but they're ignorant to the point of being morons. They should seriously question themselves about whether they even have a place in public policy discussions given how demonstrably ignorant they are. These are truly the kind of citizens the founders were trying to protect us against when they eschewed democracy in favor of a representative republic.
From the strict meaning of the Latin origin of the word civil I agree with you. When adding the cultural and historical context of the U.S. "Civil Rights" battle I no longer see all civil rights issues fitting the same context.

In our Constitution rights are inalienable not a right granted by government. Since Gays have all the same rights as everyone else the question I ask myself are we as a people not recognizing an inalienable right that exists for Gays to marry? I think this is not an issue of inalienable rights, but an issue of behavior that society has every right to decide just like pedophilia or polygamy. As a conservative and Christian sexual bent has no impact on how I feel about a person or couple, but I don't see Gay marriage as a natural right.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:16 AM   #156
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...but I don't see Gay marriage as a natural right.
Do you see marriage as a natural right?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:08 PM   #157
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The GOP has lost this battle, and must now turn it into a "religious freedom" issue. They need to present to the public the notion that religion has separation from the State and that they need not be dictated to on core issues (which marriage clearly is).


It'll set up a battle royale among the advocates who will demand churches follow Federal and State laws. Religion already lost this battle when the Mormons were denied Polygamy but they're only 1% of the public. Not the nearly 1/2 who are Christians and who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #158
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The GOP has lost this battle, and must now turn it into a "religious freedom" issue. They need to present to the public the notion that religion has separation from the State and that they need not be dictated to on core issues (which marriage clearly is).


It'll set up a battle royale among the advocates who will demand churches follow Federal and State laws. Religion already lost this battle when the Mormons were denied Polygamy but they're only 1% of the public. Not the nearly 1/2 who are Christians and who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds.
That is a great analogy. I do not believe it is right to compel churches to perform same sex marriages. I think it would be perfectly fine for the government to function as a record keeping device though, and to ensure that those marriages are legal.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:34 PM   #159
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That is a great analogy. I do not believe it is right to compel churches to perform same sex marriages. I think it would be perfectly fine for the government to function as a record keeping device though, and to ensure that those marriages are legal.
No one is even suggesting that church's marry gays against their will. Thats just fear being brought out to panic people.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:40 PM   #160
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No one is even suggesting that church's marry gays against their will. That's just fear being brought out to panic people.

I have seen the issue raised. I think the worry is that once something is deemed legal that goes against their religious beliefs, they are afraid that it will be pushed forward at every point. Add to that the "blurring" of secular vs. non secular issues, such as dependent health care or birth control device insurance coverage. Then throw in some fear mongering by religious leaders and dipshit activism by "liberals", and I can understand why people would get upset about it.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:44 PM   #161
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I have seen the issue raised. I think the worry is that once something is deemed legal that goes against their religious beliefs, they are afraid that it will be pushed forward at every point. Add to that the "blurring" of secular vs. non secular issues, such as dependent health care or birth control device insurance coverage. Then throw in some fear mongering by religious leaders and dipshit activism by "liberals", and I can understand why people would get upset about it.
Yeah well change sucks for some people. Some just want their America back.

The government can't dictate what religious ceremony's take place in a church. It in a little thing called the constitution.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #162
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Yeah well change sucks for some people. Some just want their America back.

The government can't dictate what religious ceremony's take place in a church. It in a little thing called the constitution.
That would be great if we followed the Constitution all of the time.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:06 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
The root word of civil comes from the latin "civis" which means "citizen."

Whatever the battle for whatever the set of "rights," it's a civil rights battle - a battle over what rights a citizen has.

The right to copulate with little boys is a civil rights battle. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't change the fundamental nature of what kind of battle it is (ie. rights for citizens).

Anyone who says the battle for gay rights isn't a civil rights battle are not only wrong, but they're ignorant to the point of being morons. They should seriously question themselves about whether they even have a place in public policy discussions given how demonstrably ignorant they are. These are truly the kind of citizens the founders were trying to protect us against when they eschewed democracy in favor of a representative republic.
Well, I have to disagree with you here TacoJohn. Not even our govt has this one right:
Civil rights are personal rights guaranteed and protected by the U.S. Constitution and federal laws enacted by Congress ....http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/civilrights/faq/86.html
Civil rights are not natural inalienable rights which are few. You figure natural rights by putting man back into a state of nature which is about surviving in a hostile environment. They exist prior to govt and are inalienable or irrevocable by govt. This doesn't mean that govts won't do this but it's wrong. The only way to make inalienable rights stick is not to have man being the creator or inventor, if one prefers, the one who determines rights.

Civil rights are positivist rights enacted by laws. These do not exist outside of the legislative process or society and as such they are a privilege. There really aren't any civil rights in the original Constitution anyway, the ones there are natural rights. Civil rights have extended to how citizens treat each other which is BS. Most rights are now a human invention infinitely being created by the left. Don't believe me just look at the second half of the list in the Charter of Human Rights, one reason, I hate that leftist idea of "human rights". These include: a right to democracy, an education, a job...I believe even a living wage. ( Essentially it's positivism for socialism) etc. Progressives love to invent things in the Constitution that don't exist. Just look at how often the left invents new rights. Progressivism tries to overcome our founding, which is to say to overcome the natural-law foundations of our original political order.

Marriage is not a civil right. Gay marriage is not a natural right. Laws regarding marriage under our Constitution is for the State's to determine making them positivist rights. I don't see any lack of equality under the law, since all people are subject to the same rule requirements—that they marry a person of the opposite sex. Such rules or requirements can change by the society.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Yeah well change sucks for some people. Some just want their America back.

The government can't dictate what religious ceremony's take place in a church. It in a little thing called the constitution.
You need a good primer on rights with some better definitions instead of making an argument like this.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:20 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
The GOP has lost this battle, and must now turn it into a "religious freedom" issue. They need to present to the public the notion that religion has separation from the State and that they need not be dictated to on core issues (which marriage clearly is).


It'll set up a battle royale among the advocates who will demand churches follow Federal and State laws. Religion already lost this battle when the Mormons were denied Polygamy but they're only 1% of the public. Not the nearly 1/2 who are Christians and who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds.
I have run the idea of govt just being out of marriage, of course by state govt, by very devout conservative Christians who have opposed gay marriage. If they understand rights, and also know that people just once up and married without state involvement. I have found them to find this idea acceptable. They just don't want public school teachers socially engineering their kids to accept it. Or to anyone at all. Of course, this is exactly what Marxists want to do.
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