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Old 01-29-2013, 08:25 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Guantanamo will remain open for business.

Pretty big defeat for the civil libertarians among us.

I remain convinced that Gitmo and its usage in the wake of the "War on Terror" will remain a blot on American history. The complete black hole of legal protections we ensured there grew the pool of recruits for terrorists world wide (probably still does), and the enhanced interrogation we enacted there will essentially don this structure as a monument to American torture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/us...son.html?_r=1&

Office Working to Close Guantánamo Is Shuttered
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: January 28, 2013

FORT MEADE, Md. — The State Department on Monday reassigned Daniel Fried, the special envoy for closing the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and will not replace him, according to an internal personnel announcement. Mr. Fried’s office is being closed, and his former responsibilities will be “assumed” by the office of the department’s legal adviser, the notice said.

The announcement that no senior official in President Obama’s second term will succeed Mr. Fried in working primarily on diplomatic issues pertaining to repatriating or resettling detainees appeared to signal that the administration does not currently see the closing of the prison as a realistic priority, despite repeated statements that it still intends to do so.

Mr. Fried will become the department’s coordinator for sanctions policy and will work on issues including Iran and Syria.

The announcement came as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and four other Guantánamo Bay detainees facing death penalty charges before a military tribunal over the Sept. 11 attacks made their first public appearance since October on Monday, sitting quietly in a high-security courtroom at the naval base in Cuba as pretrial hearings resumed. A closed-circuit feed of the proceedings was shown at Fort Meade.

Mr. Mohammed, with a red-dyed beard and a turban, wore a camouflage jacket over white garb. All five detainees spoke briefly in telling the judge, Col. James Pohl of the Army, that they understood their right not to attend future days of the hearing. Only one detainee, Walid bin Attash, spoke further, complaining through an interpreter that the defendants were not motivated to attend because “the prosecution does not want us to hear or understand or say anything.”

The session mainly focused on technical matters like nuances in an order on handling classified information. At one point, the video feed was censored for nearly a minute. It was not clear why; Colonel Pohl appeared upset and said no classified information had been discussed.

Mr. Fried’s special envoy post was created in 2009, shortly after Mr. Obama took office and promised to close the prison in his first year. A career diplomat, Mr. Fried traveled the world negotiating the repatriation of some 31 low-level detainees and persuading third-party countries to resettle about 40 who were cleared for release but could not be sent home because of fears of abuse.

But the outward flow of detainees slowed almost to a halt as Congress imposed restrictions on further transfers, leaving Mr. Fried with less to do. He was eventually assigned to work on resettling a group of Iranian exiles, known as the M.E.K., who were living in a refugee camp in Iraq, in addition to his Guantánamo duties.

Ian Moss, a spokesman for Mr. Fried’s office, said its dismantling did not mean that the administration had given up on closing the prison. “We remain committed to closing Guantánamo, and doing so in a responsible fashion,” Mr. Moss said. “The administration continues to express its opposition to Congressional restrictions that impede our ability to implement transfers.”

Besides barring the transfer of any detainees into the United States for prosecution or continued detention, lawmakers prohibited transferring them to other countries with troubled security conditions, like Yemen or Sudan. In the most recent defense authorization act, enacted late last year, lawmakers extended those restrictions and expanded them to cover even detainees scheduled to be repatriated under a plea deal with military prosecutors.

Mr. Obama had threatened to veto the bill, but instead he signed it while issuing a signing statement claiming that he had the constitutional power, as commander in chief, to lawfully override such statutory restrictions on the handling of wartime prisoners. Mr. Obama’s intentions were not clear, however, even to internal administration officials.

Last July, before the latest statute, the Pentagon repatriated a Sudanese man, Ibrahim al Qosi, after he pleaded guilty before a tribunal to conspiracy and supporting terrorism and served out his sentence as part of a deal.

Another Sudanese man who pleaded guilty to similar charges, Noor Uthman Muhammed, is scheduled to be repatriated in about a year. There is now doubt, however, about whether the military can live up to that agreement.

In recent months, the federal appeals court in Washington has vacated guilty verdicts by tribunals against two other detainees convicted of similar charges — the only two detainees to date to be convicted after a trial, rather than through a plea deal — because the offenses were not international war crimes.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. decided to continue arguing in court that it was lawful to bring such charges before a military commission. That has led to a growing split between the administration and Brig. Gen. Mark S. Martins, the chief prosecutor of the tribunals, who objected to that decision and unsuccessfully sought permission to withdraw conspiracy from the list of charges against the Sept. 11 defendants.

On Sunday, on the eve of the hearing, General Martins addressed recent coverage of the split. He argued that any disagreement was a good thing because it showed that tribunal officials were not “moving in lock step,” but rather were independent, which “if anything bolsters, rather than undermines, confidence in the military commissions system.”
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:30 PM   #61
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
why do people keep saying he failed or lied or whatever?

congress has passed legislation restricting the movement of prisoners to other countries and won't allow them to be transferred to america to be tried in regular federal courts...

those restrictions are always buried in some larger bill that the president, any president, could not veto (see the op example)...

it's not o'bammy that is keeping gitmo open, it's the congress...

(and, yes i slept with obama and wash his balls every chance i get...)
I mostly agree. It is obvious Congress doesn't want to get any of these prisoners transferred. But it is my understanding no new terrorists have been sent to Gitmo since Obama took office they keep them in theater now.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:36 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i'll take door number three, please...

gitmo has always presented significant legal and moral difficulties for us, but i fully supported it's creation and use during the bush years...

but congress should allow it to be closed and either transfer prisoners to 3rd countries or bring them to trial in the u.s. where every other terrorist has been convicted and imprisoned...

there's no practical reason to continue to hold prisoners at gitmo, imo...
I'd vote for door #2 in that it was just a campaign promise Obama knew he'd never accomplish. Sounded good at the time though right?
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:10 PM   #63
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
BRC at least presents his opinion and arguments as opposed to just heckling people and never making an argument someone can't challenge cosmos on.
BEP, could you please elaborate on your repeated assertions about Obama voter fraud, such as that in several places he received more votes than there were registered voters?

Since I've asked several times and you refuse to respond, I argue that you are batshit crazy and a dishonest loon. There you go--challenge it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:55 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I'd vote for door #2 in that it was just a campaign promise Obama knew he'd never accomplish. Sounded good at the time though right?
yes, it did sound good at the time, and if it were up to me, i'd close gitmo and bring the remaining prisoners to the u.s. for trial...
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:56 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
BEP, could you please elaborate on your repeated assertions about Obama voter fraud, such as that in several places he received more votes than there were registered voters?

Since I've asked several times and you refuse to respond, I argue that you are batshit crazy and a dishonest loon. There you go--challenge it.
i see you've met ms. pea brain...
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
To you. I guess you can find me a poll that suggests otherwise, but in my opinion, closing Gitmo was not a top concern of voters. Some number surely was/is in favor of it, but as for being a major concern--I don't think so.
if you're going to speak for all the voters then why wouldn't it be important to them?
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:43 PM   #67
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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if you're going to speak for all the voters then why wouldn't it be important to them?
"Important" is relative. But I don't think it is "important" enough for most people to be pissed about simply because for most people, there are more pressing issues in their lives than jailed foreigners suspected of terrorism. At the end of the day, are people voting on their economic interests, health care, etc, or whether we are being too mean to people fighting against our troops?

Also, the issue with Gitmo was/is not so much simply that people are held there--it is their treatment. Many, including myself, don't think we should torture. And while I'm not really losing sleep over Korans being pissed on or whatever else they were doing, I think it is stupid and hurts the US. Knock that shit off and have some sort of way to deal with and determine a fate for these people other than indefinite detention--that is the real issue, not the location where they are being held.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:54 PM   #68
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i hear what you're saying and i can't argue with that...

but campaign promises are not checks to be cashed...

campaign promises are mostly wishful thinking or just pure bullshit...
That right there is complete bullshit, You just think it's ok to lie without consequence? Was Clinton the first to tell a lie and be admired for it? or did it start somewhere before that? It shouldn't be tolerated, ever.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:13 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
That right there is complete bullshit, You just think it's ok to lie without consequence? Was Clinton the first to tell a lie and be admired for it? or did it start somewhere before that? It shouldn't be tolerated, ever.
all politicians lie, what of it?

politicians have been making campaign promises for thousands of years, it's not something that obama invented...

and a majority of americans who voted in november didn't seem to have too big a problem understanding the difference between a lie and a campaign promise...

and they seemed to "tolerate" obama's campaign promises just fine...

things aren't as black and white as you would like them to be i know, but nuance can be a beautiful thing...

you should try it sometime...
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:17 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
all politicians lie, what of it?

politicians have been making campaign promises for thousands of years, it's not something that obama invented...

and a majority of americans who voted in november didn't seem to have too big a problem understanding the difference between a lie and a campaign promise...

and they seemed to "tolerate" obama's campaign promises just fine...

things aren't as black and white as you would like them to be i know, but nuance can be a beautiful thing...

you should try it sometime...
My point still stands, this country is doomed if we accept lies as something cute that people do. Honestly you would have to say that most of those that voted for him did so knowing nothing of issues and many more voted for him because he wasn't George Bush. I guess it's because I hold people to a higher standard.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:27 AM   #71
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My point still stands, this country is doomed if we accept lies as something cute that people do. Honestly you would have to say that most of those that voted for him did so knowing nothing of issues and many more voted for him because he contwasn't George Bush. I guess it's because I hold people to a higher standard.
So, not being able to keep a campaign "promise" is a "lie?" You're being a bit ridiculous. We call them "promises", but there's only so much a president can directly control (despite the alleged use of dictatorial executive orders). I put the same standard on Bush. Those promises are goals. Call it a failure it you want, but a lie is something else.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:16 AM   #72
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This is really all Bush's fault.
Typical democrat response.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:30 AM   #73
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To you. I guess you can find me a poll that suggests otherwise, but in my opinion, closing Gitmo was not a top concern of voters. Some number surely was/is in favor of it, but as for being a major concern--I don't think so.

I never would have thought it was possible to type with those little wooden puppet hands.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:29 AM   #74
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So, not being able to keep a campaign "promise" is a "lie?" You're being a bit ridiculous. We call them "promises", but there's only so much a president can directly control (despite the alleged use of dictatorial executive orders). I put the same standard on Bush. Those promises are goals. Call it a failure it you want, but a lie is something else.
This is the problem with our society we can just brush away an obvious lie as well it must be something else. I still call it a lie, Bush or Hopebama.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:49 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
My point still stands, this country is doomed if we accept lies as something cute that people do. Honestly you would have to say that most of those that voted for him did so knowing nothing of issues and many more voted for him because he wasn't George Bush. I guess it's because I hold people to a higher standard.
Let me ask you a question Killer. In your honest opinion if tomorrow Congress came back and passed a bill to allow the transfer of Gitmo detainees and authorized moving them to state penitentiaries and have them tried in civilian court do you think Obama wouldn't close Gitmo as a detention facility fairly quickly after they all moved out?
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