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Old 02-11-2013, 11:11 AM  
BigMeatballBillay BigMeatballBillay is offline
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:44 PM   #91
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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I'm saying that there are many religious people that believe that "good" behavior is defined by what they think God wants. That can lead to a lot of problems.
I see where we've talked past each other here.

In the above statement, you suggest that many religious people believe "good" behavior is defined by what they think God wants.

Who told them what God wants? And how does that person know?

I tend to believe that "good" behavior is self-evident - "common sense", "cause and effect".

I also tend to believe that organized religion is a way to control people in this life, not the next.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:44 PM   #92
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The first suggestion is the best. Can't wait to see him wear that funny hat.
I'll only be pope if I can ex-communicate people from DC.

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #93
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Then I'm neither, because neither of those terms define me.

**** Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Scientologists, Agnostics AND Atheists.
Now...that's my Pope!
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #94
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Sure, but that's not what we were talking about either. You made mention of his anti-religious rants and I said that it is within reason for an agnostic to be bitter about religion.
Isn't an agnostic one who states we don't, and can't know, about God?

Why would that make them bitter?
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:48 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
I see where we've talked past each other here.

In the above statement, you suggest that many religious people believe "good" behavior is defined by what they think God wants.

Who told them what God wants? And how does that person know?

I tend to believe that "good" behavior is self-evident - "common sense", "cause and effect".

I also tend to believe that organized religion is a way to control people in this life, not the next.
If elected Pope I give this post two thumbs up and a kiss of my pope ring
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:48 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
I see where we've talked past each other here.

In the above statement, you suggest that many religious people believe "good" behavior is defined by what they think God wants.

Who told them what God wants? And how does that person know?

I tend to believe that "good" behavior is self-evident - "common sense", "cause and effect".

I also tend to believe that organized religion is a way to control people in this life, not the next.
Dogma tells them. Taught by the church, through religion. When dogma contradicts your personal beliefs is when the problems can happen.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:49 PM   #97
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Sure, but that's not what we were talking about either. You made mention of his anti-religious rants and I said that it is within reason for an agnostic to be bitter about religion.
I should choose my words more carefully next time.

Clay has, in the past, flatly denied the existence of God. That's not an Agnostic.

It's clear to me now that he's not separating the concept of God from the concept of man-made religion, or vice versa.

It's certainly within in human nature for an Agnostic to be bitter about religion. However, it really isn't "reasonable" for an Agnostic that is comfortable with their beliefs (or for that matter, a Muslim, or Christian, or Atheist) to harbor bitterness. Bitterness is born out of emotion, "reason" in and of itself transcends that.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:50 PM   #98
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Isn't an agnostic one who states we don't, and can't know, about God?

Why would that make them bitter?
Well, the most compelling reason for me personally is that we live in a society where large groups of like minded people wield considerable political power. In that way laws can be written or changed that I am required to abide by.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #99
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Well, the most compelling reason for me personally is that we live in a society where large groups of like minded people wield considerable political power. In that way laws can be written or changed that I am required to abide by.
Couldn't that happen even if there were mainly agnostics or atheists in power or anything else?
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:52 PM   #100
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Well, the most compelling reason for me personally is that we live in a society where large groups of like minded people wield considerable political power. In that way laws can be written or changed that I am required to abide by.
Again, you're blurring the lines between the temporal and the spiritual.

What you are talking about is a PURELY temporal problem.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:52 PM   #101
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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Couldn't that happen even if there were mainly agnostics or atheists in power or anything else?
Of course it could.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:53 PM   #102
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Religious people are irrelevant when it comes to Agnosticism, or Atheism for that matter. Agnosticism is a personal belief, it's not a religion.
True, however from the perspective of someone who has values to be told by someone who has zero evidence that the only reason they have them is because of the god they believe in it can be a tad irritating to an agnostic~
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:54 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
I should choose my words more carefully next time.

Clay has, in the past, flatly denied the existence of God. That's not an Agnostic.

It's clear to me now that he's not separating the concept of God from the concept of man-made religion, or vice versa.

It's certainly within in human nature for an Agnostic to be bitter about religion. However, it really isn't "reasonable" for an Agnostic that is comfortable with their beliefs (or for that matter, a Muslim, or Christian, or Atheist) to harbor bitterness. Bitterness is born out of emotion, "reason" in and of itself transcends that.

Denying emotion doesn't rob it of its power over you. Agnostic can be used as a very broad term, but in a religious sense being an "agnostic" refers to knowledge of spiritual truths. Chief among them God's existence.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:54 PM   #104
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True, however from the perspective of someone who has values to be told by someone who has zero evidence that the only reason they have them is because of the god they believe in it can be a tad irritating to an agnostic~
Why would you that bother you?

Those types of people are ignorant, not irritating.

Move on.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:55 PM   #105
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Again, you're blurring the lines between the temporal and the spiritual.

What you are talking about is a PURELY temporal problem.
This is an example of spiritual beliefs affecting the temporal world. On a very personal level.
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