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Old 02-11-2013, 11:11 AM  
Chocolate Hog Chocolate Hog is offline
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:57 PM   #106
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Well, the most compelling reason for me personally is that we live in a society where large groups of like minded people wield considerable political power. In that way laws can be written or changed that I am required to abide by.
Which specific laws are you bitter about?
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:57 PM   #107
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Denying emotion doesn't rob it of its power over you.
An emotional response that never happens doesn't need to be denied.

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Agnostic can be used as a very broad term, but in a religious sense being an "agnostic" refers to knowledge of spiritual truths. Chief among them God's existence.
Which takes us full circle.

For an Agnostic, the answer to "does God exist" cannot be "no".
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:58 PM   #108
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This is an example of spiritual beliefs affecting the temporal world. On a very personal level.
No.

Those are TEMPORAL beliefs, passed down from MAN to MAN, and being sold as "spiritual" beliefs.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:59 PM   #109
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Why would you that bother you?

Those types of people are ignorant, not irritating.

Move on.
I do as long as they keep their beliefs private and ask for no special consideration like teaching their beliefs to our kids in schools...oh and they do not fly planes into buildings and make threats against those who disagree with them. If they can play by those rules I will move along quietly~
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:59 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
Clay has, in the past, flatly denied the existence of God. That's not an Agnostic.
And yet, if I also believe in the possibility of a higher power, how is that atheist?

I'm simply rejecting the characteristics of a potential deity, not the deity itself.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:01 PM   #111
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Couldn't that happen even if there were mainly agnostics or atheists in power or anything else?
Sure. In this country we have a system where, theoretically, laws are made to withstand rational scrutiny. This doesn't stop large groups of people from voting based on their religious beliefs of course. Historically it hasn't and I don't expect that to change. I do expect laws to be continually held up to rational scrutiny though.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #112
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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And yet, if I also believe in the possibility of a higher power, how is that atheist?

I'm simply rejecting the characteristics of a potential deity, not the deity itself.
As I mentioned before, it's become clear to me that you're not separating the Christian God from Christians.

Despite what Christians may tell you, it's entirely possible for the Christian God to exist without the existence of Christianity or Christians for that matter.

As I understand you now, you're not an Atheist. You're not rejecting a deity at all. You're rejecting a projection of what a certain religion thinks Deity looks like.

I can totally get it, too. Because as I said, I believe organized religion was created by MEN, to control MEN.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:04 PM   #113
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
This doesn't stop large groups of people from voting based on their religious beliefs of course.
This goes both ways.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:06 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
No.

Those are TEMPORAL beliefs, passed down from MAN to MAN, and being sold as "spiritual" beliefs.
I'll give you an example to take this out of the realm of the theoretical. There were a set of "Blue Laws" here in the US enacted in the South. They were designed to promote church approved activity, including attendance, on Sundays. I'm old enough to remember my grandmother fighting (politically) to keep them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:06 PM   #115
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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This was certainly a most excellent discussion but I'm off to bed.

I'm on my 2nd strain of the flu in as many weeks.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:07 PM   #116
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I'll give you an example to take this out of the realm of the theoretical. There were a set of "Blue Laws" here in the US enacted in the South. They were designed to promote church approved activity, including attendance, on Sundays. I'm old enough to remember my grandmother fighting (politically) to keep them.
God didn't enact those laws.

People did.

And for all we know, God didn't approve.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:09 PM   #117
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This goes both ways.
It goes many ways. It is not the concern of our government "why" you voted the way you did. Only that you voted. But that law is supposed to fit within our legal framework and withstand scrutiny. That has not always been the case, and it has happened substantially more often when the law agreed with the religious beliefs of the majority.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:09 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
God didn't enact those laws.

People did.

And for all we know, God didn't approve.
But the people had to live under them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:11 PM   #119
htismaqe htismaqe is offline
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But the people had to live under them.
Completely irrelevant.

God has absolutely NOTHING to do with those laws.

They were designed by, enacted by, and enforced by PEOPLE.

Just because they say they're acting in "God's name" doesn't mean they actually ARE.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #120
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Completely irrelevant.

God has absolutely NOTHING to do with those laws.

They were designed by, enacted by, and enforced by PEOPLE.

Just because they say they're acting in "God's name" doesn't mean they actually ARE.
No, it's not irrelevant. Religious belief enacted those laws. Religion.
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