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Old 10-27-2012, 08:53 PM  
Al Bundy Al Bundy is offline
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Official 2012-2013 NBA Thread

Looks like James Harden has been To the Rockets for Jeremey Lamb, Kevin Martin and future picks. Plus... this is a general NBA thread.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:37 PM   #1831
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I think that player was Kimble Anders.
No, it was Cash. I have very few pleasant Chiefs memories, but that is one.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:50 PM   #1832
KC_Connection KC_Connection is offline
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan View Post
I wouldn't say Jordan's Bulls were a super-team. At least this post is at things I actually said, instead of quoting me and arguing something I was never talking about. It's not really excuses, it's just reality. MJ, whether from nostalgia or whatever it is, has the image of a warrior to fall on. I think that stirs up the imagination. Lebron needs to capture that I think. Maybe he has to do it in his own way. Obviously the guy has plenty of time to do so. I just think it would be more interesting if D Wade wasn't by his side. I really have never liked Wade at all.
Jordan's Bulls were one of the best super teams of all time. Pippen was basically Jordan's Wade in terms of quality and production. Kukoc was a fantastic #3 (just as good as Bosh in the mid-90s if not better). Kerr and Rodman were also as good at their roles as anybody you can find.


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I hated Lebron when he left CLE. I really was rooting for him to win there. I don't like MIA and I don't like Bosh or Wade. I think those are things going against him too, as far as his like-ability goes. Comparing them skill-wise is a different argument, but if we are talking about how people view them, I think my previous post shows factors that matter. Lebron can put up all the stats he wants, if he never puts up a legacy of being clutch it's going to be hard to surpass Michael.
People like winners. As LeBron wins more, his likeability will go up. It already has quite significantly in the last year. So that really isn't going to be the issue down the road, I imagine.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:52 PM   #1833
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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As mentioned many times before, LeBron is the 3rd in WS/48 in NBA Playoff history behind only Jordan or Mikan. Yeah, he just sucks in the playoffs.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html
Yeah, because I said "he sucks in the playoffs."

I said Jordan was maybe the best playoff performer of all time. Of any sport. And you keep passing off meaningless statistics as if that's supposed to put LeBron anywhere near the same conversation as MJ. And again, I showed you stats that said statistically, Peyton Manning was very good in the playoffs too. The stats don't tell the full story.

The idea that those stats put LeBron in the same conversation as MJ is laughable. Regardless of what the statistics say, LeBron has a very long way to go before being considered anywhere near an elite playoff performer when you put him up against legends like Bird, Magic, dominant finals performers like Shaq, and even Kobe. Of course he would. He's young. He has a very, very long road to hit MJ level. MJ was pretty much the perfect playoff performer.

Your obsession with statistics has got to stop. Putting up good statistical numbers is NOT a sign of playoff productivity. Tracy McGrady has one of the highest PPG totals in playoff history. That doesn't mean he was a great playoff player. As of right now, LeBron is on PACE to be a very good playoff performer. But better than MJ? He has to be damn near perfect from here on out in every facet of the game.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:53 PM   #1834
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Dude, Rodman was the best pure rebounder of the last 30 years. He would destroy Bosh on the glass. It probably wouldn't even be close.
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:56 PM   #1835
NJChiefsFan NJChiefsFan is offline
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Originally Posted by KC_Connection View Post
Jordan's Bulls were one of the best super teams of all time. Pippen was basically Jordan's Wade in terms of quality and production. Kukoc was a fantastic #3 (just as good as Bosh in the mid-90s if not better). Kerr and Rodman were also as good at their roles as anybody you can find.
He did have a really good team. I still think Wade is a better #2. I think Bosh has a better skill set but Kukoc fit in and was used a little better. As I said, I was pretty young growing up so a lot of my opinions on this are not from real-time memories.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:00 PM   #1836
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I said Jordan was maybe the best playoff performer of all time. Of any sport. And you keep passing off meaningless statistics as if that's supposed to put LeBron anywhere near the same conversation as MJ. And again, I showed you stats that said statistically, Peyton Manning was very good in the playoffs too. The stats don't tell the full story.
Writing off statistics just because you don't like what they have to say is exactly what's childish and laughable. They're far more objective and unbiased than you pretend to be (although do you even pretend to be? You've admitted many times to hating the guy).

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As of right now, LeBron is on PACE to be a very good playoff performer. But better than MJ? He has to be damn near perfect from here on out in every facet of the game.
Is there something you don't understand about LeBron being ahead of MJ's pace in both championships and statistical dominance at the same age? Or are these just things you aren't willing to acknowledge because they don't fit into your image of what you believe is right and true?
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:04 PM   #1837
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #1838
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan View Post
He did have a really good team. I still think Wade is a better #2. I think Bosh has a better skill set but Kukoc fit in and was used a little better. As I said, I was pretty young growing up so a lot of my opinions on this are not from real-time memories.
You don't win 72 games in a season without a team full of incredibly good players that fit together perfectly. And Wade is/was a better player than Pippen, but they were/are both HOFers.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:10 PM   #1839
NJChiefsFan NJChiefsFan is offline
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Originally Posted by KC_Connection View Post
You don't win 72 games in a season without a team full of incredibly good players that fit together perfectly. And Wade is/was a better player than Pippen, but they were/are both HOFers.
That team did fit together perfectly.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:11 PM   #1840
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Originally Posted by KC_Connection View Post
Writing off statistics just because you don't like what they have to say is exactly what's childish and laughable. They're far more objective and unbiased than you pretend to be (although do you even pretend to be? You've admitted many times to hating the guy).
Yes, I have been objective. I've given LeBron credit for a lot of things. I put him above Kobe, which is something many NBA fans won't do. You, on the other hand... I have never seen you say even a remotely bad thing about LeBron or a good thing about Kobe. Who's the one not being objective?

Let me be clear about something... you are putting LeBron in the same conversation as MJ from a playoff performance perspective. And you are using stats to prove your point. Joe Montana is probably the best playoff QB in NFL history. Other than wins, what statistic leads you to that conclusion? How do you put a number on Jordan's late game heroics? Statistics are easily misinterpreted and they almost never tell even close to the full story. Yet, you keep relying on them like they're gospel.


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Is there something you don't understand about LeBron being ahead of MJ's pace in both championships and statistical dominance at the same age? Or are these just things you aren't willing to acknowledge?
Yeah, that's a really fair argument for you to make, given that MJ played 3 years at North Carolina. By Jordan's 7th season, he was on his way to a 3-peat. And then he went on to win another 3-peat. Is there something you didn't understand about the point I've been making all along that for LeBron to be considered better than MJ, he has to be PERFECT in the playoffs from here on out?
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:30 PM   #1841
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Yes, I have been objective. I've given LeBron credit for a lot of things. I put him above Kobe, which is something many NBA fans won't do.
That's just common sense. Anybody who has watched these two play in their careers know that they are on completely different levels. But sure, credit to you for not being such a hater that you believe something absolutely ridiculous.

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You, on the other hand... I have never seen you say even a remotely bad thing about LeBron or a good thing about Kobe. Who's the one not being objective?
I've said plenty both ways about both. When there are so many irrational haters of LeBron, though, my rational side leads me to defend him more often than not.

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Let me be clear about something... you are putting LeBron in the same conversation as MJ from a playoff performance perspective.
I haven't done anything of the sort. Even the stats (which suggest LeBron is the 3rd best playoff performer of all time so far) don't put him on MJ's level in the playoffs. He has to do more in that realm to get there obviously.

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Yeah, that's a really fair argument for you to make, given that MJ played 3 years at North Carolina.
I'm not sure how MJ playing in college changes the fact that LeBron is ahead of where MJ was at his age in both team success and statistical dominance. That may be one of the reasons why, but the reason is largely irrelevant. The fact that he is is what's important. And you don't seem ready or prepared yet to acknowledge it.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:35 PM   #1842
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Dude, Rodman was the best pure rebounder of the last 30 years. He would destroy Bosh on the glass. It probably wouldn't even be close.
not to mention the fact he would absolutely get into Bosh's head. Bosh is soft. Rodman preyed on those kind of guys.

He owned Malone and Kemp in the Finals. He got so far under both of their skin it was ridiculous. That's something that doesn't show up in the stat book but it played a huge part in the Bulls Finals wins. I honestly thought Rodman had a case for the 1996 NBA Finals MVP.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:37 PM   #1843
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and people talk about MJ and his 6 titles.

Lets be real here. MJ probably WOULD have won every title in the 90s had he not

A) retired the first time
B) Reinsdorf paid them all one more time not to retire the second time

does anyone realistically think the Bulls would have won every title from 1990-1999 had Jordan came back for one more year AND had he not retired right in the middle of his two three-peats?

So the whole "Kobe wants to get 6 so he can be like MJ" thing cracks me up. MJ only got 6 because that's all he felt like getting.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:40 PM   #1844
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and I always laugh when people mock his time in Washington...

the dude, at age 39, averaged 20/6/4 and 1.5 steals with a 45%/30%/82% line.

I hated him coming back to Washington but it's not like he was a terrible/washed up player even at age 39.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:41 PM   #1845
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That's just common sense. Anybody who has watched these two play in their careers know that they are on completely different levels. But sure, credit to you for not being such a hater that you believe something absolutely ridiculous.


I've said plenty both ways about both. When there are so many irrational haters of LeBron, though, my rational side leads me to defend him more often than not.


I haven't done anything of the sort. Even the stats (which suggest LeBron is the 3rd best playoff performer of all time so far) don't put him on MJ's level in the playoffs. He has to do more in that realm to get there obviously.
And I am saying that even from here on out, stats aren't going to tell you the full story. You can selectively pull statistics to tell any story. As an example, I gave you a stat that said MJ has hit 50% of his game winners. LeBron is about 1/3 and Kobe's is even less.


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I'm not sure how MJ playing in college changes the fact that LeBron is ahead of where MJ was at his age in both team success and statistical dominance. That may be one of the reasons why, but the reason is largely irrelevant. The fact that he is is what's important. And you don't seem ready or prepared yet to acknowledge it.
It absolutely makes a difference because LeBron had a 3 year head start on MJ. Statistically that matters. Like I said, LeBron may be further along now at 28 than MJ was, but that's not even what matters. What matters is that Jordan in his peak was about as close to perfect as you can get. That meant domination as a player/athlete, the kind of leader that challenges his teammates to be better, and the quintessential playoff performer.

It's not going to be enough for LeBron to win a bunch of games from here on out. If he wants to be in the same conversation as Jordan, he has to win championships in buckets and he HAS to take over playoff games late in the game the way Jordan did. I think LeBron is good at that, but sorry, I just don't think he has the kind of competitive arrogance that Jordan has. I don't think anybody does or has, in the NBA, let alone any sport. Jordan was quite possibly the most competitive athlete to ever play in any sport.
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