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Old 02-22-2013, 09:36 AM  
Molitoth Molitoth is offline
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The Exhaustion of the American Teacher

Ran across this article making it's way around facebook.
I thought it was very interesting, especially considering my wife is an elementary teacher. This really hits the nail on the head.
What are your thoughts?

I don't venture into the DC forum too often, sorry if repost.

And the article won't let me Copy/Paste.

http://theeducatorsroom.com/2012/09/...erican-teacher
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:24 PM   #46
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Lowest 10% (starting teachers) are in that $30-35K range:

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Tra...hers.htm#tab-5

Somewhat mitigating the 10-month work year is the fact that I'm guessing most teachers work more than 40 hours a week during the school year. I hosted a MathCounts competition today, and all the teachers were sitting at tables grading papers. I'm guessing that if they weren't at the competition, sometime this weekend they would be doing that at home. But then, lots of other people work overtime as well.

Most teachers that have been at it for more than 5 years have earned their Masters. $50K for a mid-career professional with a Masters degree isn't anything to write home about. When its all said and done, I don't think they are grossly underpaid or overpaid.

Anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid is free to take advantage of the situation and become one.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:34 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
When its all said and done, I don't think they are grossly underpaid or overpaid.

Anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid is free to take advantage of the situation and become one.
I think with the importance of the job most teachers are underpaid... but to balance that out, I know far far far too many teachers who are mouth breathing morons who would be overpaid at any amount. I'm all for raising the standards and raising the pay.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I think with the importance of the job most teachers are underpaid... but to balance that out, I know far far far too many teachers who are mouth breathing morons who would be overpaid at any amount. I'm all for raising the standards and raising the pay.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:35 PM   #49
chiefforlife chiefforlife is offline
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Originally Posted by VAChief View Post
Do you assume a football coach works two hours a week? How much time do you think it takes to plan and then assess 6 hours of instruction a day? This is especially true for math and literacy where instruction needs to be incredibly fluid (based on the student's individual needs and developmental ability).

Competent teachers, not even great teachers need to work all the time to keep up (including planning and professional development in the summer).
I asked the question because I dont know. As I stated, I dont want to make assumptions.
The teacher at my youngster's school, the one I was referring to, gets volunteer parents to grade the students work. In fact they get volunteer parents to unstack the chairs in the morning, to help pass out tests, to bring them dinner during parent teacher conferences, its amazing what they ask the parents to do.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:43 PM   #50
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Studies show that teachers who quit and go into other professions very rarely make more money in their next position. That is a pretty clear indication they are not underpaid. Now, to this article's point: are they overworked? Maybe. I'd like summers off and 2 weeks at Christmas and 1 week at spring break though. Unfortunately my boss doesn't grant it to me
That's kind of ridiculous. If you're a good chef, I don't expect you to go into teaching and be good at that too. Ever think that maybe teachers that tend to quit are those who weren't very good at their job in the first place?

I believe teachers are underpaid. Like all ridiculous public sector policies, the problem is that great teachers are paid the same as shitty ones. So good and great teachers are underpaid, but there are way too many shitty ones who are overpaid.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #51
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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yeah, for most teachers, it isn't about the money, overwork, or anything else. It is about out of control kids.

That's what this article is saying as well.
No, the article was propaganda that made a long list of excuses. I couldn't stand the original article, even though I am a firm believer in improving the education system.

I'm tired of excuses. I have no problem paying good and great teachers. I have a huge problem with all the excuses for teachers everyone knows is flat-out incompetent. I have talked to many teachers who have told me that the union strips out all creativity and flexibility to be human in teaching.

I work in the private sector. The reason I love working is that I know that when I do great work and the doofus next to me takes 2 hour lunches, I'll be on a better track than him. It doesn't always work that way, but you get the point. Good and great teachers, I bet, do not feel overworked because they love their job and they're great at it. If anything, they probably feel grossly under appreciated. And good and great teachers are probably frustrated with their jobs not because of all the things they have to do, but all the things they are not allowed to do.

Again... I am not a teacher. But most teachers I've talked to, this is the common sentiment.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:16 PM   #52
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Yeah, but that doesn't mean they all do that. I've taught before. Besides why do K teachers get such high pay. The answer is supposedly that it affects young children's attitudes toward education. Doesn't take a whole lot of prep time what's you get down what you need to get done your first few years.
Not all, same as there are ill prepared in any profession, but to think otherwise is blissful ignorance. Your statement about K teachers I find especially ignorant of reality. Teaching children their beginning literacy and numeracy skills could not be more important.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
Lowest 10% (starting teachers) are in that $30-35K range:

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Education-Tra...hers.htm#tab-5

Somewhat mitigating the 10-month work year is the fact that I'm guessing most teachers work more than 40 hours a week during the school year. I hosted a MathCounts competition today, and all the teachers were sitting at tables grading papers. I'm guessing that if they weren't at the competition, sometime this weekend they would be doing that at home. But then, lots of other people work overtime as well.

Most teachers that have been at it for more than 5 years have earned their Masters. $50K for a mid-career professional with a Masters degree isn't anything to write home about. When its all said and done, I don't think they are grossly underpaid or overpaid.

Anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid is free to take advantage of the situation and become one.
In most areas that value education, I don't believe they are underpaid either, but the work is exhausting at times. My wife is a high school math teacher and grades papers until 10 and 11 most nights (she has 150 students in her sections). She plans most of the summer for the next year. It isn't the same as the rest of the year, but correlates to what happens with anyone who works at home.

The teachers have summers off is a convenient cop out for those who don't want to think about reality. It is always interesting to see new substitutes reactions to what that reality entails for 6 and half hours, and of course everything has been planned for them. You are exactly right, you think it is so sweet, go back to school and take advantage. Those that do so for the "summers off" don't last long.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by VAChief View Post
Not all, same as there are ill prepared in any profession, but to think otherwise is blissful ignorance. Your statement about K teachers I find especially ignorant of reality. Teaching children their beginning literacy and numeracy skills could not be more important.
Important sure. Difficult no.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:32 PM   #55
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Important sure. Difficult no.
Therein lies the ignorance. Difficult for every student no, but for many it is a monumental challenge.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:35 PM   #56
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Do the Teachers work 8:30 to 4:00? I would really like to know so I dont make assumptions...
My wife is a teacher. Most days she is out the door by 6AM and doesn't return until 5PM. That is if there isn't a meeting after class be it a school, grade level, or just a teaming session. On those days I typically see her come home by 7-7:30pm. When she gets home she is either grading papers or working on lesson plans for about an hour or two... I often help her grade. This doesn't include the time she sets aside to call parents and talk to them about their spoiled crotch fruit.

She typically will put in 6 hours on Saturdays. That is when she will typically meet with her student teach her to plan the week as well as teach the student teacher how to be an effective educator (no... she doesn't get paid extra to babysit a n00b teacher). Sundays she reserves for herself.

On a typical work week she is easily putting in 65-70 hours.

As for her 3 month vacation in summer. 2 of those months are taken up with personal development meetings put on by the district or taking additional college classes offered by the district to make her a better teacher. Of the remaining 4 weeks, 2 of them are spent in the classroom getting her room ready for the next school year and meeting with the teachers from the grade level below in order to become aquainted with her new students. The other 2 weeks... she actually takes for herself.

She has been teaching for 15 years and is 12 credit hours away from a Doctorate. She makes substantially less than that 70k number floating around earlier in the thread.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:43 PM   #57
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Therein lies the ignorance. Difficult for every student no, but for many it is a monumental challenge.
I come from the private sector and can assure you that there is a long line of "successful" people who are very, very poorly qualified to be a good teacher. So I agree with you and anyone else who wants to judge teachers like they aren't talented. There are insanely brilliant people who have no people skills, aggressive managers who have no patience, others who are poor at coaching other people. Others just don't like distraction -- they want to put their head down and get to work. Other managers who are too selfish and would rather manage the top 5% of their team instead of taking the time to manage the under-performers. For that matter, we see it in academia all the time. There are lots of tremendously smart businesspeople who are shitty at being a professor (and we're talking about teaching grown-ups who are all motivated to do the work).

So yes, I would agree that it's a ridiculous blanket statement to say anybody can teach. I am happy with my private sector career. I think I do fairly well. But I have tried teaching Junior Achievement classes and was not good at it.

However... I will still contend that the biggest problem is that there are also plenty of teachers who fall into that top category as well and they get away with keeping a job they aren't good at.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by VAChief View Post
Therein lies the ignorance. Difficult for every student no, but for many it is a monumental challenge.
It is nothing but repetition and rote memorization. Parents should already have this done before kindergarten.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #59
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It is nothing but repetition and rote memorization. Parents should already have this done before kindergarten.
DING - DING - DING

But they ****ing don't and leave everything to what they see as a state issued baby sitter.

The first part of your comment is just pure ignorance.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #60
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It is nothing but repetition and rote memorization. Parents should already have this done before kindergarten.
That is a gross misrepresentation of what they do. We've all been taught by plenty of teachers who knew their shit and did exactly as you say and they were terrible teachers. And we've all been taught by teachers that change our lives.

I don't know what's so hard about this. We all know the difference between good and bad teaching, yet can't acknowledge that it's talent that sets good and bad ones apart?
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