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Old 02-24-2013, 06:22 PM  
Buck Buck is offline
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Does anybody drive a 6-speed manual?

I just bought one and I don't really understand when I'm supposed to use the 6th speed. It seems like if it was just for fuel conservation, I would switch right to 6th from 4th...In other words, I switch into 5th at around 60 MPH and I've been switching to 6th at 65.

I don't want to ruin my tranny. Anyone have advice?
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #31
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I was more concerned about the criteria than the car. I read "under 10k loan, sporty and practical" and started thinking all of the 444 cars out there, I'll explain what that means in a second. Mazda has a really bad habit of building 442 cars and did terrible on their 444 experiment, which is why the Speed6 went bye bye and half of the ones that hit the road were plagued with repair builds.

A 444 car is what my friends and I like to classify 4 door, 4 cylinder, 4 wheel drive vehicles. 442 is a 4 door, 4 cylinder, 2 wheel drive. The 444 in most peoples eyes is going to be superior to the 442.

Example, Subaru STI > Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution > Neon SRT-4, why? 444>444>442. More importantly, they end to be better cars, more reliable, and certainly more practical. And more mod friendly.

In the case of the MS3, you're talking about a 442 hatch. For the same price of say, a 20-30k mile MS3, I'd rather go pickup a 50-70k mile Subaru STI, Evo, etc.

As a car guy and a driver, I'd say go for the subaru. Hell, you could even find a WRX for sale if you can't find an STI at the right price. Having had a ton of seat time in both the STI's and the EVO's, I can tell you the STI is the one to drive. It is far more practical in its design for every day use in Kansas 6 speed close ratio vs. 5 speed not-so-close ratio (older Evo's in price range), better suspension, economy is about the same, faster than the evo, and so much more fun to drive.

Lets take a 2006 STI vs. a 2nd gen MS3 as an example and compare them in some categories, since the prices are damned near the same.

1/4 times= STI
Gas Mileage= Push with a fractional advantage to the MS3 18/25 vs. 18/24
Response to modification= STI
Practicality= STI, AWD> FWD all day in the rain, snow, etc.
Braking= STI, and this is important for any real driver, because braking is everything at the Auto-X, Road Course, and adds a near priceless value to the safety of the person driving the car. Crash impact ratings are one thing, but braking is a whole new ball game.
New Car Feel= MS3

Choice is yours, but if you're talking Sporty, practical, non coupe vehicles, the Subaru STI and Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution have to be in your argument if you're looking at an MS3 since they are all in the same pricing range. The difference, of course, is that you are going to sacrifice Age and Mileage for an all around better car.

If newer and less mileage truly is a deciding factor, go with the MS3, but if driving the car, practicality, and even performance have anything to do with it, go find an older STI or even an EVO. And if you want you want to compromise and toss affordability into it, go find a basic WRX that is at least turbo charged, and you'll have about the same performance as an MS3, but have the practicality of AWD and having saved a few bucks all together.
I'm going to disagree with the response to modifications. The MS3 community is large and there are a lot of options for modifications. In addition, Mazda put low caps onto the Speed3's. A tune alone opens up a lot for that car. A few simple mods pulls another 75 ponies easily from the car.

All in all not a bad post, but to get a price around a new Speed3, he would have to buy at least a 2 year old STi with around 25k-40k miles.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:29 PM   #32
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I just row through the gears 1-6. My shift point usually hinges between 2500-3000 rpms. But I also drive a 5.0 and rarely have to downshift.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:33 PM   #33
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I just go based on what I want to do. I downshift like normal. If I'm downshift from a good chunk of speed ill blip the throttle a bit to match the rpms

I don't worry about excessive shifting etc. only have a 5 SPF though.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:04 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by KC native View Post
I'm going to disagree with the response to modifications. The MS3 community is large and there are a lot of options for modifications. In addition, Mazda put low caps onto the Speed3's. A tune alone opens up a lot for that car. A few simple mods pulls another 75 ponies easily from the car.

All in all not a bad post, but to get a price around a new Speed3, he would have to buy at least a 2 year old STi with around 25k-40k miles.
No offense here, but I'm going to guess that I have a lot more "experience" in the modification side of things on a larger spectrum of cars than you have. I know what the MS3 club is about, I hang out with the KC group quite a bit out doing the racing thing, I know what a lot of them can do and have been told many times about what "opening up" an MS3 can do. However, most of them don't seem to grasp the idea that EVERY car ever made is on that same point. EVERY car can "open up" because of how detuned for emissions these cars are, especially the turbo cars.

Yes, they make very good power opened up, but how are you comparing it? Based on a WHP percentage of stock versus modded?

I can make more power for the money mod vs. mod with an STI than you can with an MS3. It is limited, the motor itself is limited by comparison.

If you keep it specifically to bolt on modifications, the MS3 is a very proven WHP production car, it, however, does not surpass the Evo or the STI in that argument. They trump the MS3 all day long in terms of raw power for the budget.

I'm also saying this compared to a 2006 STI which is about the 17-20k area with anywhere from 40-70k miles. A 2 year old STI is still in the 30+ and if I'm not mistaken, the MS3's are around 23-26k new. And I'm specifically using the gen 2 MS3 as the comparison, not the Gen 1.

In terms of power, I've taken a lightly modded 2 valve mustang GT and beaten quite a few heavily modded Gen2 MS3's. Why? Traction primarily. They pull hard up top because by comparison, they have more power than I do in my 2 valve, but I have a RWD v8 with a solid axle, so I'll put 2-3 cars on them instantly out of the hole on all season radials, and then just cruise to victory. From a roll, They put about a half a car, or a car on me from 45 mph to 110MPH.

In my eyes, the MS3 is more comparable to the SRT4 than any car out there, and in my opinion, a much better option than an SRT4.

However, all of that said, I disagree with you heavily on the argument that the community and mods are plentiful for the MS3's right now. It is a new car, there is years of R&D left to do on them before the market gets plentiful.

Understand for a moment, that I've modded Mustangs, Camaros, Hondas, DSM's, etc. Those markets are the standard of "plentiful", not the MS3 community, or even the MS community as a whole. It is a very new, very infantile market at the moment.

I hear guys talking about paying 1300 dollars for 45 WHP, where 1300 dollars in a 91 Eclipse GSX equates to about 145 WHP, or about 230 WHP in a terminator cobra.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dayze View Post
I just go based on what I want to do. I downshift like normal. If I'm downshift from a good chunk of speed ill blip the throttle a bit to match the rpms

I don't worry about excessive shifting etc. only have a 5 SPF though.
Blipping the throttle is an entry into a driving technique called "Rev matching" or "Compression deceleration", it saves clutch and transmission life, and is the PROPER way to drive a manual transmission. It doesn't matter where I drive or what I'm driving, if it has a manual transmission, I rev match it, even 4 cylinder rangers haha.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:06 PM   #36
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Love the 6-speed in the Miata. Have to keep reminding myself not to try to go to sixth when I'm driving the wife's 5-speed though. Don't think it would be good to shift into reverse at about 50+ mph. *grin*
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:07 PM   #37
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Love the 6-speed in the Miata. Have to keep reminding myself not to try to go to sixth when I'm driving the wife's 5-speed though. Don't think it would be good to shift into reverse at about 50+ mph. *grin*
When I picked up my first 6 speed, It took me about two weeks to use 6th gear religiously. It felt wrong going there, and I cringed every time I made the shift.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:06 PM   #38
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I have a 2013 Mazda3 with a six-speed manual. I just shift up through the gears as the RPM allows. I can be in 6th gear cruising on a boulevard at 45 mph. To get to my house, I have to turn an corner and immediately go up a fairly steep hill. I can be in 2nd up to 25 mph, because if I shift into 3rd too soon, the RPM are too low for the power I need to accelerate up the hill. There are no real rules, its more getting to know your car and what gear gives you the performance/fuel economy balance you want for a given situation.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:20 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Exoter175 View Post
No offense here, but I'm going to guess that I have a lot more "experience" in the modification side of things on a larger spectrum of cars than you have. I know what the MS3 club is about, I hang out with the KC group quite a bit out doing the racing thing, I know what a lot of them can do and have been told many times about what "opening up" an MS3 can do. However, most of them don't seem to grasp the idea that EVERY car ever made is on that same point. EVERY car can "open up" because of how detuned for emissions these cars are, especially the turbo cars.

Yes, they make very good power opened up, but how are you comparing it? Based on a WHP percentage of stock versus modded?

I can make more power for the money mod vs. mod with an STI than you can with an MS3. It is limited, the motor itself is limited by comparison.

If you keep it specifically to bolt on modifications, the MS3 is a very proven WHP production car, it, however, does not surpass the Evo or the STI in that argument. They trump the MS3 all day long in terms of raw power for the budget.

I'm also saying this compared to a 2006 STI which is about the 17-20k area with anywhere from 40-70k miles. A 2 year old STI is still in the 30+ and if I'm not mistaken, the MS3's are around 23-26k new. And I'm specifically using the gen 2 MS3 as the comparison, not the Gen 1.

In terms of power, I've taken a lightly modded 2 valve mustang GT and beaten quite a few heavily modded Gen2 MS3's. Why? Traction primarily. They pull hard up top because by comparison, they have more power than I do in my 2 valve, but I have a RWD v8 with a solid axle, so I'll put 2-3 cars on them instantly out of the hole on all season radials, and then just cruise to victory. From a roll, They put about a half a car, or a car on me from 45 mph to 110MPH.

In my eyes, the MS3 is more comparable to the SRT4 than any car out there, and in my opinion, a much better option than an SRT4.

However, all of that said, I disagree with you heavily on the argument that the community and mods are plentiful for the MS3's right now. It is a new car, there is years of R&D left to do on them before the market gets plentiful.

Understand for a moment, that I've modded Mustangs, Camaros, Hondas, DSM's, etc. Those markets are the standard of "plentiful", not the MS3 community, or even the MS community as a whole. It is a very new, very infantile market at the moment.

I hear guys talking about paying 1300 dollars for 45 WHP, where 1300 dollars in a 91 Eclipse GSX equates to about 145 WHP, or about 230 WHP in a terminator cobra.
That's ****ing nuts. $1300 for 45 WHP? The Cobb AP alone can give you 30 WHP for $595. Throw in upgraded internals for the fuel pump ($350) so the tune can be more aggressive and you're easily pulling 45 more WHP for under a grand. Throw in a down pipe and CAI and add another 30 WHP.

Now, if you want to go farther, then yes it's going to cost you. A front mount intercooler (absolutely necessary to push the PSI up) will cost you $1100.

I never disputed the STi and Evo X don't come with more power. When you're looking at start up costs, the Speed3 is a hell of a deal. If I had more money then I would have went with an Evo X GSR. Unfortunately, I have things like bills, a family, and only one income for my family so I went with the Speed3.

I really wanted a G8 GXP but all the ones that were listed within in driving distance of me were priced at "My wife wants me to sell the car but I don't want to, so it's an absurdly high price".

Hopefully, GM will throw in a manual in the new version of the SS coming to the states (they aren't in the first production year), and in 3 years I'll be able to buy one as a toy to tear into.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:45 PM   #40
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That's ****ing nuts. $1300 for 45 WHP? The Cobb AP alone can give you 30 WHP for $595. Throw in upgraded internals for the fuel pump ($350) so the tune can be more aggressive and you're easily pulling 45 more WHP for under a grand. Throw in a down pipe and CAI and add another 30 WHP.

Now, if you want to go farther, then yes it's going to cost you. A front mount intercooler (absolutely necessary to push the PSI up) will cost you $1100.

I never disputed the STi and Evo X don't come with more power. When you're looking at start up costs, the Speed3 is a hell of a deal. If I had more money then I would have went with an Evo X GSR. Unfortunately, I have things like bills, a family, and only one income for my family so I went with the Speed3.

I really wanted a G8 GXP but all the ones that were listed within in driving distance of me were priced at "My wife wants me to sell the car but I don't want to, so it's an absurdly high price".

Hopefully, GM will throw in a manual in the new version of the SS coming to the states (they aren't in the first production year), and in 3 years I'll be able to buy one as a toy to tear into.
WHP is wheel horse power, not advertised horsepower gains based on Horsepower at the crank. 45 WHP in a 2.3 liter FWD for 1300 all said and done, is actually fairly good considering all things such as wrench time and dyno time.

You don't seem to have a very good grasp on "making power", which I won't fault you for, but trust me when I say this, it isn't as simple as buying a part and installing it. Every single thing you change, affects your tune. If you decide to go with a program, reflash, or standalone, it needs to be tuned, anytime the weather drops 14 degrees or the humidity rises or falls 15% from the status of when you tuned, your tune is off. Dyno time costs money, tuning time costs money. If you take it to get tuned, you're talking 300+ for a "decent" session, and about 600ish for a day of fine tuning including drivability tuning. That doesn't even include the parts you bought for the car.

Now, you can "street tune", but in order to do that, you need to buy a wideband O2 sensor and unit (200 bucks) and a bung welded into the piping of your exhaust (about 45 bucks) with a cap for when the wideband isn't in there. Then you need to be able to datalog the information with a computer (100-150 on craigslist). Again, that doesn't include the cost of the part.

There are those out there that will tell you that you can do a "basic tune" or a "mail in tune", but those aren't accurate, and accurate tunes are where you make power and retain reliability.

The MS3 isn't anything different than any other turbo 4 cylinder. In order to make power you need to open up the exhaust from the turbo back, you need to upgrade your fuel pump and/or injectors, and you're likely going to turn the boost up, so you need to be able to adjust timing and AFR based on those three aspects.

Now as far as your "internals for the fuel pump" goes, there is no such thing. And as far as needing a front mount to increase your PSI, there is no such need.

You can run an infinite amount of PSI through a top mount, side mount, or front mount. The reason you upgrade to the front mount is based on the size and depth of the intercooler and its efficiency in cooling the air.

Because you have a top mount intercooler, you are subject to heat dissipation from the engine directly below it, as well as ambient air temperatures literally 30+ degrees hotter on an 80 degree day. The upgrade to a front mount has nothing to do with the pressure going through, rather, being able to cool the charge further than you would be able to with a confined top mount. Now, the upgrade to the piping on the other hand, is where the PSI argument comes from.

However, again, that PSI argument has nothing to do with the upgrade as you could hit 80 PSI on a top mount and on a front mount. The issue, however, is volume. Increasing a factory top mount from 1 7/8ths inch to 2 1/2 inches is going to allow a much larger volume of air to flow through the system at the same boost level. You can't really get that volume from the top mount due to space, trust me, ran into the same issue on the WRXs, despite Perrin and TurboXS making great top mount upgrades for them.

However, there is a downside to the front mount upgrade, that issue being the lag you'll be adding to the car. It'll take more RPMs for the motor to reach full boost due to the increase in diameter as well as the increase in travel from a top mount to a front mount and the piping. Generally we're looking at about 300 rpms difference in hitting boost, and achieving full boost. It'll also put a bit more strain on the turbo charger because with the increased size of the intercooler and likely depth and dimensions of it, you'll incur what is called "Boost drop". Which is, the amount of PSI drop that the intercooler has at full boost based on what the inlet pressure is of the intercooler, and the outlet of the intercooler, after it goes through the tube and fin or bar and plate design. Generally, we're talking about .7-1.8 PSI drop INCREASE from a top mount to a front mount. So, instead of running say 20PSI outlet pressure on a top mount with about 21.2 inlet pressure, you're going to have to run nearly 23 PSI inlet pressure to achieve the same 20 PSI outlet pressure.

As far as an evo x gsr, I'd pass and probably would have passed on an MS3 to get an Evo9 base, then again, I dislike Evo's and would have gone with a 2004-2006ish STI and had the best of everything for the same price, just older and slightly more mileage, which can be a determining factor for most.

As far as the G8 GXP goes, very fun car, little bit overpriced for what it is IMO. And with Pontiac getting the axe, who knows what they ultimately do with it that chassis.

It was a great design that competed on a performance level with the M3, M5, and M6 sedan variants, but wasn't even remotely close to the level of luxury and craftsmanship, which is what GM is notorious for. They'll give you the performance of the competitor, at the sacrifice of luxury and craftsmanship. Like the Camaro, Corvette, G8 GXP, etc.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #41
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WHP is wheel horse power, not advertised horsepower gains based on Horsepower at the crank. 45 WHP in a 2.3 liter FWD for 1300 all said and done, is actually fairly good considering all things such as wrench time and dyno time.

You don't seem to have a very good grasp on "making power", which I won't fault you for, but trust me when I say this, it isn't as simple as buying a part and installing it. Every single thing you change, affects your tune. If you decide to go with a program, reflash, or standalone, it needs to be tuned, anytime the weather drops 14 degrees or the humidity rises or falls 15% from the status of when you tuned, your tune is off. Dyno time costs money, tuning time costs money. If you take it to get tuned, you're talking 300+ for a "decent" session, and about 600ish for a day of fine tuning including drivability tuning. That doesn't even include the parts you bought for the car.

Now, you can "street tune", but in order to do that, you need to buy a wideband O2 sensor and unit (200 bucks) and a bung welded into the piping of your exhaust (about 45 bucks) with a cap for when the wideband isn't in there. Then you need to be able to datalog the information with a computer (100-150 on craigslist). Again, that doesn't include the cost of the part.

There are those out there that will tell you that you can do a "basic tune" or a "mail in tune", but those aren't accurate, and accurate tunes are where you make power and retain reliability.

The MS3 isn't anything different than any other turbo 4 cylinder. In order to make power you need to open up the exhaust from the turbo back, you need to upgrade your fuel pump and/or injectors, and you're likely going to turn the boost up, so you need to be able to adjust timing and AFR based on those three aspects.

Now as far as your "internals for the fuel pump" goes, there is no such thing. And as far as needing a front mount to increase your PSI, there is no such need.

You can run an infinite amount of PSI through a top mount, side mount, or front mount. The reason you upgrade to the front mount is based on the size and depth of the intercooler and its efficiency in cooling the air.

Because you have a top mount intercooler, you are subject to heat dissipation from the engine directly below it, as well as ambient air temperatures literally 30+ degrees hotter on an 80 degree day. The upgrade to a front mount has nothing to do with the pressure going through, rather, being able to cool the charge further than you would be able to with a confined top mount. Now, the upgrade to the piping on the other hand, is where the PSI argument comes from.

However, again, that PSI argument has nothing to do with the upgrade as you could hit 80 PSI on a top mount and on a front mount. The issue, however, is volume. Increasing a factory top mount from 1 7/8ths inch to 2 1/2 inches is going to allow a much larger volume of air to flow through the system at the same boost level. You can't really get that volume from the top mount due to space, trust me, ran into the same issue on the WRXs, despite Perrin and TurboXS making great top mount upgrades for them.

However, there is a downside to the front mount upgrade, that issue being the lag you'll be adding to the car. It'll take more RPMs for the motor to reach full boost due to the increase in diameter as well as the increase in travel from a top mount to a front mount and the piping. Generally we're looking at about 300 rpms difference in hitting boost, and achieving full boost. It'll also put a bit more strain on the turbo charger because with the increased size of the intercooler and likely depth and dimensions of it, you'll incur what is called "Boost drop". Which is, the amount of PSI drop that the intercooler has at full boost based on what the inlet pressure is of the intercooler, and the outlet of the intercooler, after it goes through the tube and fin or bar and plate design. Generally, we're talking about .7-1.8 PSI drop INCREASE from a top mount to a front mount. So, instead of running say 20PSI outlet pressure on a top mount with about 21.2 inlet pressure, you're going to have to run nearly 23 PSI inlet pressure to achieve the same 20 PSI outlet pressure.

As far as an evo x gsr, I'd pass and probably would have passed on an MS3 to get an Evo9 base, then again, I dislike Evo's and would have gone with a 2004-2006ish STI and had the best of everything for the same price, just older and slightly more mileage, which can be a determining factor for most.

As far as the G8 GXP goes, very fun car, little bit overpriced for what it is IMO. And with Pontiac getting the axe, who knows what they ultimately do with it that chassis.

It was a great design that competed on a performance level with the M3, M5, and M6 sedan variants, but wasn't even remotely close to the level of luxury and craftsmanship, which is what GM is notorious for. They'll give you the performance of the competitor, at the sacrifice of luxury and craftsmanship. Like the Camaro, Corvette, G8 GXP, etc.
I should have been clearer. Heat soak is a terrible problem with the Speed3's. If you want to keep the power consistent and you have been making modifications, then you have to go to the FMIC for them.

Also, the Speed3's go boom if you don't upgrade the fuel pump when making mods. Autotech sells a kit that uses the existing fuel pump's shell and basically replaces everything inside of it. If you don't upgrade the fuel pump and you start boosting the PSI on the car, you will destroy your motor.

I've spent a ton of time researching what I want to do to it. Fortunately, there are a couple really active Mazda forums with plenty of guys willing to post mod lists and dyno sheets.

I'm also not worried about Dyno expense. I have a college buddy that owns a tuner shop.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:11 PM   #42
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I should have been clearer. Heat soak is a terrible problem with the Speed3's. If you want to keep the power consistent and you have been making modifications, then you have to go to the FMIC for them.

Also, the Speed3's go boom if you don't upgrade the fuel pump when making mods. Autotech sells a kit that uses the existing fuel pump's shell and basically replaces everything inside of it. If you don't upgrade the fuel pump and you start boosting the PSI on the car, you will destroy your motor.

I've spent a ton of time researching what I want to do to it. Fortunately, there are a couple really active Mazda forums with plenty of guys willing to post mod lists and dyno sheets.

I'm also not worried about Dyno expense. I have a college buddy that owns a tuner shop.
And that heat soak comes from the ambient temperatures inside of the engine bay, not necessarily by its design, but placement. Even then, there are ways around it and it isn't truly dependent on the mods, rather than the tune and the driving. If you tune for lower EGT's like a DSM, you'll cut the power loss through heat dissipation by at least 60% on a TMIC.


Also, that bit about the fuel pump is inaccurate. The MS3 isn't going boom because of a fuel pump, it is going boom because owners aren't knowledgeable and paying enough attention to what counts. Tuning. If you watch your duty cycle, AFR, Timing, and Knock, you'll never go "boom" but you'll surely see tangible information at your fingertips of you overextending the limit of your current fuel pump. Also, one of the first upgrades on the list of any turbo car is an upgraded fuel pump when you decide to up the boost, that one is a no brainer. You can't just add boost and make more power. You have to add fuel and add or reduce ignition timing, sometimes even drop to a 1 step colder plug to compensate. Literally everything you touch on a car, alters the tune and AFR one way or the other. That kit you are talking about, isn't upgrading the internals of the pump, its actually utilizing the factory "hat" so that the system is plug and play (it isn't really a shell, but utilizing something already made with their application, huge difference), or minimal alteration to the unit until the major companies can get through the R&D to produce their versions. The marketplace takes time to grow like that, and in some cases companies will refrain from producing parts for certain cars due to their design and the cost for them to make an applicable product.


As for your tuning hookup, there you go, for you that 1300 mark is going to be more like 650-750 bucks
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:04 AM   #43
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Blipping the throttle is an entry into a driving technique called "Rev matching" or "Compression deceleration", it saves clutch and transmission life, and is the PROPER way to drive a manual transmission. It doesn't matter where I drive or what I'm driving, if it has a manual transmission, I rev match it, even 4 cylinder rangers haha.
yep; I got in the habit when riding my sport bike so I wouldn't have any 'surprises' with my rear tire lol
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:54 AM   #44
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:51 AM   #45
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my 1st is so short in the Rabbit that, unless on ainclined hill, I just start out in 2nd. I can't stand staring out in 1st and needing to shift 1 second later.
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