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Old 02-24-2013, 11:45 PM  
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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Leaked DOJ gun policy memo

Most of this honestly is little surprise....overall takes....all of the policies proposed will have little real world impact on crime.....

http://www.nraila.org/media/10883516...olicy-memo.pdf

The one bit that actually concerns me is....

Quote:
In five cities studied closely found no change in the criminal use of large capacity magazines during the ten year ban. However, a Washington Post analysis for Virginia continued the analysis where the research team left off. The data indicate that the percentage of crime guns using large capacity magazines declined from 18% in 1999 (when magazine imports were highest) to its lowest level in 2004 (10% of crime guns had large capacity magazines). The percentage doubled between 2004, when the ban expired, 2010.
Honestly the 'scientist' who wrote this piece should actually be ashamed to call themselves a scientist. Why? Because if you're asking the question of how often > 10 round magazines are used in crime you are completely asking the wrong question. The question you ask is, how often did the use of > 10 round magazine make a difference in the crime. Because if having a > 10 round magazine didn't make a difference in then taken them away will not change those crimes.

It's the difference between correlation and causation. I think it's safe to say that wearing Nike Air Jordans is correlated with violence and gang activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Jordan#Controversy

But just because there is a correlation between Air Jordans and crime, does that mean we should ban all Air Jordans? Of course not because generally speaking the Air Jordans didn't cause much of the crime being committed. They just happened to be worn when it was. Banning them would have little to no effect because people would just wear something else like Ganstaroos.

Looking at the data I believe fewer than 2% of gun crimes had more than 10 shell casings. In many of the crimes with > 10 shell casings multiple guns were recovered so each gun may have fired fewer than 10 rounds.

While it would be difficult to say that the 2% of crimes that fired more than 10 rounds would have been impacted positively or negative by banning magainzes > 10 rounds. We can say with certainty that the 98% of all gun crimes that use less 10 rounds won't be impacted by banning magazines with > 10 rounds because having more than 10 rounds didn't make a difference in that crime!
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:27 AM   #2
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:09 AM   #3
WoodDraw WoodDraw is offline
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The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.

But these other proposals don't do anything, because they grandfather in years and years of guns flowing like candy. The more I think about it, the more I care less about specifics (magazine size, look, blah blah) and more on personal responsibility (requiring gun owners to be insured, let insurers set prices and regulations, and let cops confiscate guns that aren't registered and insured.)

I think an insurance market, along with universal background checks, would be a step in the right direction. But I'm open to changing my mind. I think it's an incredibly complex topic.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.

But these other proposals don't do anything, because they grandfather in years and years of guns flowing like candy. The more I think about it, the more I care less about specifics (magazine size, look, blah blah) and more on personal responsibility (requiring gun owners to be insured, let insurers set prices and regulations, and let cops confiscate guns that aren't registered and insured.)

I think an insurance market, along with universal background checks, would be a step in the right direction. But I'm open to changing my mind. I think it's an incredibly complex topic.
Insurance isn't going to do dick either except make a bunch of insurance companies money.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.
.
Is this standup night?

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:19 AM   #6
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I never viewed the look at high cap magazines as an attempt to curb a lot of gun violence, just to target the worst of the worst.

Which is arguably not a good enough reason to ban them.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:45 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.
Historically registration has been followed by confiscation. This is a very bad idea.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:47 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.

But these other proposals don't do anything, because they grandfather in years and years of guns flowing like candy. The more I think about it, the more I care less about specifics (magazine size, look, blah blah) and more on personal responsibility (requiring gun owners to be insured, let insurers set prices and regulations, and let cops confiscate guns that aren't registered and insured.)

I think an insurance market, along with universal background checks, would be a step in the right direction. But I'm open to changing my mind. I think it's an incredibly complex topic.
Great idea, get raped by insurance companies for exercising my constitutional rights. Brilliant!

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Old 02-25-2013, 10:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.
says the inusrance salesman...
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:46 PM   #10
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodDraw View Post
The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program. And I'm not sure that could pass constitutional muster.

But these other proposals don't do anything, because they grandfather in years and years of guns flowing like candy. The more I think about it, the more I care less about specifics (magazine size, look, blah blah) and more on personal responsibility (requiring gun owners to be insured, let insurers set prices and regulations, and let cops confiscate guns that aren't registered and insured.)

I think an insurance market, along with universal background checks, would be a step in the right direction. But I'm open to changing my mind. I think it's an incredibly complex topic.
So I'll be honest here's the question I would ask and frankly any time a politician proposes banning anything you should ask these questions and require them to be specific.

With insurance what problem are you trying to solve?

You see a large amount of gun homicides and gun crimes in general are done by those who are prohibited from even owning firearms. Therefore they wouldn't even be able to get 'gun insurance'. The freakonomics guys said that on average statistically it takes about 10,000 years for an average handgun to cause a single fatality. Lets assume that 10X as many people are wounded as killed(which is probably quite high). That would mean on average it would take 1000 years for a handgun to wound a person.

Statistically legally owned weapons are unlikely to ever be liable for damages, so functionally with a non-existant risk and effectively no expected payouts the cost to said insurance in a perfect world would be effectively $0. Except that we don't live in a perfect world and the actual insurance cost would include the costs to run the insurance + an amount of profit for the insurer.

Insurers would love this because the policy is effectively pure profit. They'll likely never have to pay money and in many of the states proposing it the regulators will always be in favor of raising rates. Why? Because in effect it is a tax on gun owners and while placing and insurance requirement on guns won't likely pay out to many people ever wounded or killed by guns. It will be an effective tax on gun owners. One thing is true when you raise the price of anything you reduce the number of people who are willing to buy it. It's the age old economic supply and demand curve.

So by requiring insurance they are in effect raising the price of owning guns, which will net result in some people choosing not to own guns. Which is the actual intent of the program in the first place to try to make it as hard and expensive to own guns as possible so that no one can own them.

Honestly if people want to ban guns that's fine. This is america, you are allowed to feel that way. But don't go disguising intent under the illusion that this is a beneficial program.

The only way that gun insurance could pay out in any significant degree is if the 'insurance' paid out everyone who was shot or killed by guns regardless of if the shooter was insured. Now think about that....you'd be requiring people to buy insurance to pay for a criminal to shoot(often another criminal) someone. Even when they had nothing to do with the shooting, just because they happen to own a gun.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #11
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says the inusrance salesman...
With this type of thinking I am grateful he is not my agent. If this came up in a conversation with my agent I would ask one question "how many days have you been my agent not counting tomorrow?" I would have different agent the next day~
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:50 PM   #12
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Insurance isn't going to do dick either except make a bunch of insurance companies money.
No shit.

I could lock my guns up in a Fort Knox style vault and I'm still going to have the privilege of paying to insure them?

To hell with that. I pay enough money for the privilege of owning the things I buy already. From property taxes to sales taxes to gas taxes to payroll taxes to loads of insurance, 1/2 my damn income goes to funding the privilege of using those things that I have already worked hard to earn.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - all that's going to do is make me a criminal because there's just no way I'm putting up with any more of this crap.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:52 PM   #13
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The only law that would really work, imo, is a mandatory registration and insurance program.


Yes because all the lowlife street hoods are going to step right up and register and insure their guns.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:55 PM   #14
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No shit.

I could lock my guns up in a Fort Knox style vault and I'm still going to have the privilege of paying to insure them?

To hell with that. I pay enough money for the privilege of owning the things I buy already. From property taxes to sales taxes to gas taxes to payroll taxes to loads of insurance, 1/2 my damn income goes to funding the privilege of using those things that I have earned.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - all that's going to do is make me a criminal because there's just no way I'm putting up with any more of this crap.
I wish they had a rep system that allowed me to give you a voucher for a beer or drink of your choice. Sending a message saying I agree with you and admire your post does not serve a post like this the proper acknowledgement~
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