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Old 03-08-2013, 02:54 PM  
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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Top DHS checkpoint refusals

Interesting...This is how you resist tyranny....warrentless, unconstitutional checkpoints.



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Old 03-08-2013, 09:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Didn't the Obama sue the state of AZ over fear of this exact thing happening?
I thought it was his position that it was OK for the feds (DHS) to do stuff like this but not local law enforcement.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I thought it was his position that it was OK for the feds (DHS) to do stuff like this but not local law enforcement.
Buried way down, it was. But that's not what we heard. We heard that people would be asked for their papers and what not, remember?
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:42 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Buried way down, it was. But that's not what we heard. We heard that people would be asked for their papers and what not, remember?
I'm going to have to go back and look. I was thinking that AZ law enforcement was stopping people and asking them about their citizenship, or stopping people specifically to ask them. And that AZ had passed a law mandating that law enforcement do this.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Buried way down, it was. But that's not what we heard. We heard that people would be asked for their papers and what not, remember?
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:44 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
so touching
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:46 PM   #36
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Here's something:

The Arizona law would take effect July 29. Among other things, it will require police making a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest" to check a person's immigration status if they reasonably suspect the person is in the country illegally. Unlike many of the assaults on the measure, the Justice Department lawsuit does not attack it for targeting Hispanics. Instead, the administration argues that Congress intended immigration to be enforced uniformly across the country and that the Arizona law is stricter than federal law in many respects. For example, Arizona's law makes it a crime for unlawful immigrants to apply for a job, while federal law says the person who hires the immigrant is the criminal offender, not the employee.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...culations.html
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
For example, Arizona's law makes it a crime for unlawful immigrants to apply for a job, while federal law says the person who hires the immigrant is the criminal offender, not the employee.
Arizona's take on it makes much more sense than the Fed's. An employer can simply claim they didn't know Jose was illegal and the burden of proof rests with the state/Feds to show that Jose was hired knowing he was illegal.

The way AZ has it, it "targets" the illegal themselves... you know, the only person who could 100% know their legal status. Punish the illegal. If it can be proved the hiring party knew... then nuke them from orbit as well.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
Arizona's take on it makes much more sense than the Fed's. An employer can simply claim they didn't know Jose was illegal and the burden of proof rests with the state/Feds to show that Jose was hired knowing he was illegal.

The way AZ has it, it "targets" the illegal themselves... you know, the only person who could 100% know their legal status. Punish the illegal. If it can be proved the hiring party knew... then nuke them from orbit as well.
Are you saying someone knows better than the Fed???? Dude you better get into your drone shelter and quick!!
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Are you saying someone knows better than the Fed???? Dude you better get into your drone shelter and quick!!
I'm going to buy an antidrone bracelet from whatever company BEP finds.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
Arizona's take on it makes much more sense than the Fed's. An employer can simply claim they didn't know Jose was illegal and the burden of proof rests with the state/Feds to show that Jose was hired knowing he was illegal.

The way AZ has it, it "targets" the illegal themselves... you know, the only person who could 100% know their legal status. Punish the illegal. If it can be proved the hiring party knew... then nuke them from orbit as well.
You mean treat illegal behavior as if it were illegal? Perish the thought.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:00 AM   #41
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hey dumbass, he was never asked his name, he was ask his nationality among other requests. this went right over your head -- he stumped law enforcement because what they are doing is unconstitutional.. and that means they are too ****ing retarded to uphold the most basic laws of the land. JFC they are breaking the law idiot
I read your post and have not re-viewed the video. But I am quite sure that there were a couple times where they asked for name or ID.

The agents were not stumped, they followed their training. They are trained to ask people to volunteer information. If the person volunteers more information than they are required to reveal, there is no constitutional violation.

There would only be a constitutional violation if they used the refusal to volunteer information as a sole basis for suspicion of a crime or extended detention, or gave it unreasonable importance as a factor in deciding whether there is suspicion or cause.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:07 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
The driver was asked to pull over to a secondary checkpoint on most of the stops, not just that one.

In some cases they were, in some they weren't. Is it a coincidence that you don't remember that agent telling the driver that he was ordering him to comply, or any of the instances where the agents would just repeat directives as if the driver had no choice but to comply?

Here's a site that disputes it:

The relevant Supreme Court cases are Terry v. Ohio and Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. In Terry, the court said that law enforcement can stop a person and conduct a frisk if the officer has a reasonable suspicion (which is less than probable cause) that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person “may be armed and presently dangerous.” This may extend to asking you to identify yourself as it is a kind of investigation.


In Hiibel, the police were investigating a report of a possible crime. They approached Hiibel, who was parked in a car. Hiibel repeatedly refused to give his name, and was subsequently arrested. Nevada had a stop and identify law, which was used to convict him. The Supreme Court determined that these laws are constitutional, so long as they require officers to have reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal involvement. However, if the person believes that providing their name would be incriminating, it’s possible that fifth amendment protections might still apply. But if police are not investigating and have no reasonable suspicion, then you do not have to give your name.

http://crimedime.com/2012/04/16/do-y...ice-your-name/

It's more reasonable to have immigration checkpoints at borders, then you don't have to intimidate and harass citizens into giving up their rights.

Good point.

I agree.
I knew about the Hiibel case because of the unusual name. I thought the holding was that police could always ask for ID, but maybe it was more limited based on the statute and what the cops were up to before encountering the person.

IIRC, the cops were investigating a particular offense when they saw Hiibel by the side of the road and decided that interviewing him might help their investigation. He decided that he was minding his own business and did not need to say who he was.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:15 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jettio View Post
I knew about the Hiibel case because of the unusual name. I thought the holding was that police could always ask for ID, but maybe it was more limited based on the statute and what the cops were up to before encountering the person.

IIRC, the cops were investigating a particular offense when they saw Hiibel by the side of the road and decided that interviewing him might help their investigation. He decided that he was minding his own business and did not need to say who he was.
When I was handing out the SOC flyers at Arrowhead, I had a cop stop me. Told me to show him ID and I, politely, told him no. He insisted and said I *HAD* to show him ID. Again I told him no and he threatened to kick me out of the parking lot.

When I asked him how this encounter qualified as a Terry stop he stopped telling me how I had to show him my ID and called for his supervisor. His sup talked to me for 5 minutes and I was on my way to the game.

You are not obligated to show ID unless you are being detained. To be detained, there has to be probable cause.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by pr_capone View Post
When I was handing out the SOC flyers at Arrowhead, I had a cop stop me. Told me to show him ID and I, politely, told him no. He insisted and said I *HAD* to show him ID. Again I told him no and he threatened to kick me out of the parking lot.

When I asked him how this encounter qualified as a Terry stop he stopped telling me how I had to show him my ID and called for his supervisor. His sup talked to me for 5 minutes and I was on my way to the game.

You are not obligated to show ID unless you are being detained. To be detained, there has to be probable cause.
Technically, reasonable suspicion is a lighter standard than probable cause, and Terry stops require reasonable suspicion.

I am glad to learn that I misunderstood the extent of the ruling in the Hiibel case.

F*q the police, so to speak.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:33 AM   #45
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Technically, reasonable suspicion is a lighter standard than probable cause, and Terry stops require reasonable suspicion.

I am glad to learn that I misunderstood the extent of the ruling in the Hiibel case.

F*q the police, so to speak.
Hell yeah, **** the popo.
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