Invasion of Iraq 10 years later: Good move or mistake

[Amnorix]

10 years ago today the US invaded Iraq to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. The after-effects of that decision are still being felt to this day, and obviously will continue to play out in the years and decades to come. At this milestone, however, knowing everything that you know now, should we have gone in, or not?

Regrets and hypotheticals aren't really the goal here. We could go on and on (and have, many times) about how the post-invasion situation was handled, etc. ad infinitum. You should vote simply on the facts as they have actually occurred over the last 10 years.

Poll forthcoming. Note that it will be a public poll.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

He lied about numerous things related. ( There were others who knew there were no active wmd) This link is a blog but uses other media links. You'll probably say it's the NYT but as I recall Judith Miller wrote for them and pushed for war in Iraq too.


In a documentary soon to appear on Showtime, “The World According to Dick Cheney,” [Cheney said] he admits his lies. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...about-911.html

You said that Cheney admitted lying. I can find people accusing Cheney of lying all over the internet. I don't need your help with that. Do you have a link to an actual admission?

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by patteeu

You said that Cheney admitted lying. I can find people accusing Cheney of lying all over the internet. I don't need your help with that. Do you have a link to an actual admission?

It's in the link.

Note: I didn't say what he lied about just that he admitted he lied. Does he have to say "I lied" to admit it. No. Just read the first section.

[oldandslow]

Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski

You want to make this personal? Fine. Here we go.

First of all, I don't have to qualify any of my opinions with "I was in a war, man". That's terrific, Billy Jack. I'm proud of you. And between that status and being an American Indian, you've probably milked it dry for everything you got to get pushed to the front of the line for everything.

You're just another self-important self entitled baby boomer crybaby. Your generation is the reason why America is in the ****ing toilet.

You're a tenured professor, which is a nice way of saying for most of your adult life you haven't worked. What do you make, 6 figures? And you present yourself as some kind of DIY homesteader on the range? Give me a break with yor BS.

You voted for Obama? It was a mistake? Sorry? Oh well? ha ha?

How many people you report to the EEOC, Billy Jack? How many people you **** over? What did you do in Viet Nam? Saigan Cowboy, right?

You can go **** yourself.

Wow....just wow.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by patteeu

You realize that many of those quotes represent what the speaker believed at the time, right? Those aren't examples of lies and they aren't examples of people intentionally trying to mislead. They're examples of people getting something wrong. But when you compile them together to get a large number of what you call misleading statements, you give the impression that they were intentionally misleading.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...q-war-timeline

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

3/8/02 First of Downing Street memos prepared by Tony Blair's top national security aides. "There is no greater threat now than in recent years that Saddam will use WMD…Washington believes the legal basis for an attack on Iraq already exists…Regime change has no basis in international law." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/12/02 Color-coded terror alert system introduced.

3/13/02 Bush on Osama: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."

3/14/02 Downing Street memo: "Condi's enthusiasm for regime change is undimmed…Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions…what happens the morning after?" [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/15/02 British intel reports that there's only "sporadic and patchy" evidence of Iraqi WMD. "There is no intelligence on any [biological weapons] production facilities." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/22/02 Downing Street memo: "US scrambling to establish a link between Iraq and Al Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing…We are still left with a problem of bringing public opinion to accept the imminence of a threat from Iraq…Regime change does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush and Saddam." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/24/02 Saddam "is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time."—Cheney on CNN

3/25/02 Downing Street memo: "There has been no credible evidence to link Iraq with Al Qaida…In the documents so far presented it has been hard to glean whether the threat from Iraq is so significantly different from that of Iran or North Korea as to justify action." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

Late March 2002 Cheney tells Republican senators that the question is no longer if the US will invade Iraq but when. [Date the public knew: 5/5/02]

...
June 2002 Iraq bombing begins. Military will fly 21,736 sorties and attack 349 targets between now and the start of the war.

...

9/13/02 Cheney tells Rush Limbaugh: "What's happening, of course, is we're getting additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons programs." There is no such new intel.

...
Jan. 2003 CIA balks at being made to bolster weak WMD intel. In a heated conversation with Scooter Libby, CIA's McLaughlin says: "I'm not going back to the well on this. We've done our work." [Date the public knew: 10/3/05]

...
1/9/03 After nearly two months, UN's Hans Blix says his inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in Ira

...

1/31/03 Notes of meeting between Bush and Blair make clear Bush intends to invade Iraq even if UN inspectors found no evidence of WMD. Bush told Blair he'd considered "flying U2 reconnaissance planes…over Iraq, painted in UN colours" to tempt Iraqi forces to fire on them, which would constitute a breach of UN resolutions. [Date the public knew: 2/3/06]

2/1/03 During UN speech rehearsal, Powell throws draft written by Libby into the air and says: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit." [Date the public knew: 6/9/03]

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, CIA agent emails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.'" Noting he's the only US agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?" Deputy head of CIA's Iraqi Task Force responds: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say…the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about." [Date the public knew: 7/9/04]

/There are a numerous other ones provided
//I'm looking forward to seeing how you spin all of them, you got a knack.

[mlyonsd]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...q-war-timeline

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

3/8/02 First of Downing Street memos prepared by Tony Blair's top national security aides. "There is no greater threat now than in recent years that Saddam will use WMD…Washington believes the legal basis for an attack on Iraq already exists…Regime change has no basis in international law." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/12/02 Color-coded terror alert system introduced.

3/13/02 Bush on Osama: "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."

3/14/02 Downing Street memo: "Condi's enthusiasm for regime change is undimmed…Bush has yet to find the answers to the big questions…what happens the morning after?" [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/15/02 British intel reports that there's only "sporadic and patchy" evidence of Iraqi WMD. "There is no intelligence on any [biological weapons] production facilities." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/22/02 Downing Street memo: "US scrambling to establish a link between Iraq and Al Qaida is so far frankly unconvincing…We are still left with a problem of bringing public opinion to accept the imminence of a threat from Iraq…Regime change does not stack up. It sounds like a grudge between Bush and Saddam." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

3/24/02 Saddam "is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time."—Cheney on CNN

3/25/02 Downing Street memo: "There has been no credible evidence to link Iraq with Al Qaida…In the documents so far presented it has been hard to glean whether the threat from Iraq is so significantly different from that of Iran or North Korea as to justify action." [Date the public knew: 9/18/04]

Late March 2002 Cheney tells Republican senators that the question is no longer if the US will invade Iraq but when. [Date the public knew: 5/5/02]

...
June 2002 Iraq bombing begins. Military will fly 21,736 sorties and attack 349 targets between now and the start of the war.

...

9/13/02 Cheney tells Rush Limbaugh: "What's happening, of course, is we're getting additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons programs." There is no such new intel.

...
Jan. 2003 CIA balks at being made to bolster weak WMD intel. In a heated conversation with Scooter Libby, CIA's McLaughlin says: "I'm not going back to the well on this. We've done our work." [Date the public knew: 10/3/05]

...
1/9/03 After nearly two months, UN's Hans Blix says his inspectors have not found any "smoking guns" in Ira

...

1/31/03 Notes of meeting between Bush and Blair make clear Bush intends to invade Iraq even if UN inspectors found no evidence of WMD. Bush told Blair he'd considered "flying U2 reconnaissance planes…over Iraq, painted in UN colours" to tempt Iraqi forces to fire on them, which would constitute a breach of UN resolutions. [Date the public knew: 2/3/06]

2/1/03 During UN speech rehearsal, Powell throws draft written by Libby into the air and says: "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit." [Date the public knew: 6/9/03]

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, CIA agent emails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.'" Noting he's the only US agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?" Deputy head of CIA's Iraqi Task Force responds: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say…the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about." [Date the public knew: 7/9/04]

/There are a numerous other ones provided
//I'm looking forward to seeing how you spin all of them, you got a knack.

I noticed you left out at least as many democrats lying on the same subject during that time period that helped in the march to war.

Well done.

[Comrade Crapski]

Originally Posted by patteeu

You realize that many of those quotes represent what the speaker believed at the time, right? Those aren't examples of lies and they aren't examples of people intentionally trying to mislead. They're examples of people getting something wrong. But when you compile them together to get a large number of what you call misleading statements, you give the impression that they were intentionally misleading.

You know what Pat, just let these A.N.S.W.E.R., code pink wack jobs have their 15 minute circle jerk. They miss the good ol' days circa 2002-2008 when they could bash Dubya all day every day 24/7. 99% sucked obama's cock and 99.5% of them still do. And ya know, they miss those good days when Dubya was the punching bag, not dear leader.

Let them go. They are so full of shit they float. And one of the jackasses had the nerve to use the word "integrity" on me. LMFAO

[RNR]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

I noticed you left out at least as many democrats lying on the same subject during that time period that helped in the march to war.

Well done.

That is the humorous part of this. The left has shifted this into a fashionable anti Bush stance. This is a thread I plan on returning to at a point when I have the time. 90% of the people who rage on this have a sound bite mentality~

[penchief]

Originally Posted by patteeu

We didn't know where he was, but even if we did, it wouldn't have gotten Saddam.

Huh? Bush & Cheney left bin Laden in the mountains of Tora Bora when they had him trapped just so they could execute their ultimate goal of invading and occupying Iraq. The priority never was bin Laden.

Did you really think this statement would have gone unnoticed?

Also, getting Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. The Iraq threat was fabricated in order to push a neocon agenda that had been cooked up long before 9/11.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

I noticed you left out at least as many democrats lying on the same subject during that time period that helped in the march to war.

Well done.

yes yes. I know. That makes things okay? right? Do two wrongs make a right? Was Congress involved in the selling of the Iraq war? Or were they sold the same BS as the public?

/Don't get me started on them funding it though.

Look, it's hard not to look like a partisan hack when you arguing partisan hacks. So just to clear things up. I do not support the following Obama actions: NDAA, Re signing Patriot act. Continuing Gitmo, Current Use of Drones, continuation of war on drugs, attempts at Internet neutrality, not going with a single payer health insurance plan. Not getting out of the wars quick enough. I'm sure there are other things.

Also, by principle, I am against any congress member who has served more than two terms.
/don't know if that is relevant.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski

You know what Pat, just let these A.N.S.W.E.R., code pink wack jobs have their 15 minute circle jerk. They miss the good ol' days circa 2002-2008 when they could bash Dubya all day every day 24/7. 99% sucked obama's cock and 99.5% of them still do. And ya know, they miss those good days when Dubya was the punching bag, not dear leader.

Let them go. They are so full of shit they float. And one of the jackasses had the nerve to use the word "integrity" on me. LMFAO

Why do only you get to have fun for eight years, you angry angry man?

A lot of cultures celebrate a Ten Year occasion. Don't you want to celebrate a Fiscal Conservative* spending a 2 trillion in a meaningless war? Whats the interest on 2 trillion dollars?

The right wing likes to act like we were on vacation from 2001 to 2009 and nothing happened. Hallmark of the Party of Personal Responsibility*.

[Comrade Crapski]

Originally Posted by oldandslow

Wow....just wow.

Eat shit, mother ****er.

[Calcountry]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Oh, and 24-3 against, and counting... Other than "does ***** suck?" you almost never see that kind of majority around here.

might give you a clue on the population(statistical term) of the respondents in the poll.

HMMM maybe we can draw an inference about who gives a shit and posts at this place anymore???

[Comrade Crapski]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

Why do only you get to have fun for eight years, you angry angry man?

A lot of cultures celebrate a Ten Year occasion. Don't you want to celebrate a Fiscal Conservative* spending a 2 trillion in a meaningless war? Whats the interest on 2 trillion dollars?

The right wing likes to act like we were on vacation from 2001 to 2009 and nothing happened. Hallmark of the Party of Personal Responsibility*.

Hit close to home, didn't it.

I'm not angry pal. Just trying to make the wires overload and fry up in your moonbat brains.

Bush wasn't a "fiscal conservative". He's the reason the communists took control of Congress in 2007.

I could go on and on, picking apart your fairy tales and lies. But why waste my time? I tried to talk Pat out of it. He's hands down the smartest guy on DC.

I'm gonna listen to some Alice Cooper. You aint worth talking too.

[Comrade Crapski]

Oh look, everybody! A thread about Bush and Cheney and Iraq and the biggest scumbag after kOZ shows up!

Originally Posted by penchief

Huh? Bush & Cheney left bin Laden in the mountains of Tora Bora when they had him trapped just so they could execute their ultimate goal of invading and occupying Iraq. The priority never was bin Laden.

Did you really think this statement would have gone unnoticed?

Also, getting Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. The Iraq threat was fabricated in order to push a neocon agenda that had been cooked up long before 9/11.

[BucEyedPea]

Do Loneiguana, do you hold Obama to the same standard on Libya? Or was that "okay" because a multilateral force agreed with it?

What do Iraq, Libya, and Iran ( it's satellite is Syria...gotta take them down first) have in common? They were going to stop trading their oil in dollars and go to gold. That pissed the mercantilist bankers off.